The Existance of chi / ki

[Makalakumu]

According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces. There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise. Do people believe that this form of energy exists? Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi?

 

[heretic888]

I believe something like ch'i probably exists.

However, I do not believe it is a physical force and thus will never be discovered by physicists.

Now the "ki" or "chi" you seem to be talking about is different than the mere "biological energy" that gets bandied around as a definition. A bioenergy or the like could be studied fairly easily (but not by physics), I'd imagine. A transpersonal "force" underlying and inherent in all things, however, is not something a "hard" science could reveal.

That being said, I have little doubt that, provided it truly existed, some of the "soft" sciences could give us a thing or two about the subject. Meditation, after all, is a science in the truest sense of the word. With meditation (no matter what form it is), you go through a particular experiment, practice, or injunction; you acquire data from said injunction; and you submit your "findings" to others who have also gone through the injunction (peer evaluation). Pure science. In fact, I have heard the phrases "mind and spirit science" tossed around a lot. And, for good reason too.

Now, by saying meditation is a science, I'm not trying to imply that thats all it is. But a scientific method of sorts is fundamental to any kind of meditation, contemplative prayer, chi kung, or whatever do-dang practice you're into.

The only way to "prove" chi exists, just like the only to "prove" that "God" exists is by direct, firsthand experience. There is a science to these experiences, obviously, but because it isn't completely materialistic and reductionist, many of the "hard" scientists will give you giggles. But, to be frank, these individuals have not gone through the injunctions in question themselves and so they aren't exactly "peers" in this particular regard. It would be like me laughing at a biologist's theories when I haven't even bothered to look through the miscroscope and observe the "evidence" myself.

Well, these are my thoughts anyway. I could be wrong, you know.

 

[albert]

Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1

this is chi.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by albert
Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1

this is chi.

Hardly. :shrug: Any bozo can yell Kiaiii and punch. Ki is not only syncronizing the body and the breath, but also the mind, to achieve a result that is greater than the sum of its parts. If you can only type 60 words per minute and one day you are just "on it" and you type 100 words per minute with little error. That is Ki.
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

My understanding is that the idea of Chi came from china. Wether it was defined as a higher state to achieve, or an untapped life force that we theoretically all have, I think it would take someone experiencing it to really describe it.

When the idea made it over to Japan as Ki, it was interpretted a bit differently. Some say that the Chinese are better at invoking ki as they have studied it longer.

But no-one can really put their finger on what it is. It's not physical, but can enhance your strength. There are different interpretations on what it represents, depending on your origins.

But you can see the limitations of the Scientific Method, as there are things that even it, in all it's intellectual glory, cannot come to terms with.

I guess we have to cut out a few paragraphs from Ed Parker's Infinite Insights books, since his art was purely scientific. :shrug:

 

[heretic888]

My understanding is that the idea of Chi came from china.

Technically speaking, the concept of Ch'i (as its understood in the East) probably originated with the pranayama of India.

Wether it was defined as a higher state to achieve, or an untapped life force that we theoretically all have, I think it would take someone experiencing it to really describe it.

Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.

When the idea made it over to Japan as Ki, it was interpretted a bit differently. Some say that the Chinese are better at invoking ki as they have studied it longer.

No, I'd simply say that the Japanese concept of ki is not the same as the Chinese ch'i, even though the words are direct translations of one another. In my opinion, "ki" as understood in Japanese traditions seems to be more reminiscent of the Chinese concept of "shen" than with ch'i per se.

But you can see the limitations of the Scientific Method, as there are things that even it, in all it's intellectual glory, cannot come to terms with.

Actually, this is a fallacy.

The scientific method, in terms of the truth claims that it seeks, is perfectly capable of acquiring knowledge concerning ch'i and the like. I pointed above what the scientific method entails: an injunction, datum, and peer evaluation. Period. Anyone that adds anything else to that and claims that you *have* to do this to be doing science is belching a lot of hot air.

There is nothing to scientific empiricism that assumes a materialism or reductionism: psychologists and anthropologists are among the most competent scientists I know. The scientific method is perfectly capable of studying non-physical and internal phenomena. Which it does. Quite often.

Now, this is not to say that science is the only way to approach the world. For, science really only deals with things like natural facts and laws. For things like meaning and beauty and what is "good", you'll have to look elsewhere (namely to religion, art, and philosophy/ethics). But to think science is just a materialistic discipline is the height of folly.

Yes, the 'spiritual sciences' of meditation and chi kung are doing the scientific method. They have an injunction, a practice. There is a datum or illumination that said injunction discloses. And there is a group of peers who have also gone through the injunction to "evaluate" your experiences (teachers, buyu, etc.). Now, again, I'm not saying that meditation or chi kung or martial arts are just science, they are arts after all. However, there is a definite and real scientific method being approached to their study.

And this doesn't even go into the stuff that the "hard" sciences could add! I'm reminded of the EEG studies concerning the brainwaves of meditators, of cross-cultural anthropological/sociological studies concerning the "perennial philosophy" and overall human development/experience, and I even once recall seeing some special on Kung Fu on Discovery n which a machine was hooked up to a certain martial artist and it would show his image "light up" whenever he used "ch'i".

So, to think science has nothing to add concerning this issue is far from accurate. Laterz.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by heretic888

Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.

Could you give this neophyte in Chinese culture and arts a definition of the terms you used here. Since you state there is a distinction, I would like to know from what frame of refernece you and others are posting from.

Thank You

 

[Makalakumu]

If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method. If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical. If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience. Perhaps a chi-tector or something

Earl Montaigue writes with accupuncturist Wally Simpson in the Encyclopedia of Dim-mak about this subject. They say that chi is a force that flows through the body and can be enhanced or disrupted causing various bodily effects. They state that knowing points on the body along various meridians can heal or harm a subject when they are manipulated in certain ways. The example they give as evidence for this phenomenon is a study on accupuncture and anesthesiology. A specific drug has effects on the brain that are measurable with a very sensative voltmeter. This change in electrical current causes the patient to go unconscious. When accupuncture was applied, the same change in electrical current occured and unconsciousness resulted. Along the same line of reason is the fact that electrical potential can be measured on the skin in various channels that correspond to some of the major meridians (those that follow the tracks of major nerves). So, perhaps it can be said that chi is an electromagnetic force.

Which brings more questions....

1. If it is an electromagnetic force, how is it manipulated by our bodies. Is this done on a cellular level or is it something else?

2. Then there is the mystery of the tantien. No potential difference is measured in that area, with the greatest difference measured on the brain. Why is there a focus on the tantien?

3. How is chi manipulated from the outside? Are our bodies able to create a magnetic field that changes another person in some way? Can this field be expressed over long distances?

4. What are the limitations of chi manipulation in our bodies? Is it possible that learned manipulation would give superhuman abilities? Could these manipulations be caused by something external?

This is all conjecture, so far. There have been some studies on the subject, but none by major organizations as far as I can tell. If chi is an electromagnetic force, then it might not be right to call it chi. Then there is the fact that Manipulation of points that have no electric potential difference cause differing bodily effects. Manipulations work better on those who believe in chi. Which makes in indistinguishable from the placebo effect. In the end, scientists have always found that biological cause is always explanable in recorded cases where chi is actually studied.

Perhaps chi is only in our minds and it is our imaginations that extend it to others possibly causing a placebo effect to occur in their bodies.

Carl Jung has some interesting things to say about internal energies. He believes that we are all connected in a collective way and that our manipulations in our bodies and that our relationships to other people are influenced by this connection. Perhaps that connection is chi?

Who knows? Any other comments?

John

 

[MA-Caver]

I've always believed in the existence of chi in the sense that it's the energy field created by our souls. Much like the Force from Star Wars and the way Kenobi described it... (no, really I'm being serious here); "...it's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together."

Even further explained in Empire Strikes Back:
YODA: "And well you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we... (Yoda pinches Luke's shoulder) ... not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing). Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!"

Chi is basically the same thing. The energy that is put out by our eternal souls is indeed powerful enough to do incredible things. We, modern-day folk have just forgotten how. But there are a few who have studied long and hard and have found out ways to contact the chi that resides in all of us.
We all have different definitions and concepts of what it is but it's just my own two bit idea I'm stating here.

:asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by MACaver
I've always believed in the existence of chi in the sense that it's the energy field created by our souls. Much like the Force from Star Wars and the way Kenobi described it... (no, really I'm being serious here); "...it's an energy field created by all living things, it surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together."

Even further explained in Empire Strikes Back:
YODA: "And well you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we... (Yoda pinches Luke's shoulder) ... not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing). Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!"

Chi is basically the same thing. The energy that is put out by our eternal souls is indeed powerful enough to do incredible things. We, modern-day folk have just forgotten how. But there are a few who have studied long and hard and have found out ways to contact the chi that resides in all of us.
We all have different definitions and concepts of what it is but it's just my own two bit idea I'm stating here.

:asian:

Obi-wan and Yoda basically thought that the force of the Electromagnetic force according to your comments. "an energy field created by all living things" "That which binds us all together" "a force that is everywhere"

If there are adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles don't you think that more people would know about them? If there were adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles, don't you think that would end any questioning? Where are these people and what can they REALLY do? Unless anybody can be shown, even the non-believer, it is not credible according to scientific thought.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by heretic888
Technically speaking, the concept of Ch'i (as its understood in the East) probably originated with the pranayama of India.

Probably? Um, OK.

[
Well, in the Chinese systems they differentiate between jing, ch'i, and shen --- which is what you might be talking about.
[/B]

OK, so now we have 3 to deal with . The questions still remains.

And the scientific method still cannot give us an answer, and therefor Ki has about as much relevence as religion. In some cultures, the two are intertwined.

 

[heretic888]

If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method. If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical.

Yes.

If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience. Perhaps a chi-tector or something

Ummmm..... no.

You're again thinking ch'i is a physical force. It is not. A physicist, biologist, or chemist would be just as incapable of proving that ch'i exists using external measurements as they are proving that minds exist. Of course, we all know that minds exist. Why?? Direct, firsthand experience. See the pattern??

Earl Montaigue writes with accupuncturist Wally Simpson in the Encyclopedia of Dim-mak about this subject. They say that chi is a force that flows through the body and can be enhanced or disrupted causing various bodily effects. They state that knowing points on the body along various meridians can heal or harm a subject when they are manipulated in certain ways. The example they give as evidence for this phenomenon is a study on accupuncture and anesthesiology. A specific drug has effects on the brain that are measurable with a very sensative voltmeter. This change in electrical current causes the patient to go unconscious. When accupuncture was applied, the same change in electrical current occured and unconsciousness resulted. Along the same line of reason is the fact that electrical potential can be measured on the skin in various channels that correspond to some of the major meridians (those that follow the tracks of major nerves). So, perhaps it can be said that chi is an electromagnetic force.

That's a very nice theory and all, but it has one major flaw: it fails to distinguish from correlation and causation. Is the experience of ch'i the result of electropolar activity?? Or is the electropolar activity the result of ch'i?? The mind can have some very real biochemical effects on the body, but you aren't going to hear me claiming that the mind is just a collection of chemicals and neurons. Its the same with ch'i here.

Chi is basically the same thing. The energy that is put out by our eternal souls is indeed powerful enough to do incredible things.

*chuckles* I think Lucas got it backwards. Ch'i (or whatever word for "univeral cosmic force/energy/essence" you wish to insert here) is not created by living beings. Living beings are created by ch'i. After all, this assumes that before there was "life" there was no ch'i --- which doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

Obi-wan and Yoda basically thought that the force of the Electromagnetic force according to your comments. "an energy field created by all living things" "That which binds us all together" "a force that is everywhere"

I didn't get that interpretation at all. Not once did the characters refer to it as a merely physical force. In fact, Yoda says the exact opposite.

If there are adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles don't you think that more people would know about them?

No.

If there were adepts out there that can perform wondrous miracles, don't you think that would end any questioning?

No. There are people that still think Bruce Lee's "two inch punch" was a big hoax.

Where are these people and what can they REALLY do?

I'd assume they're all over the world here and there.

Unless anybody can be shown, even the non-believer, it is not credible according to scientific thought.

This is without a doubt a logical fallacy.

This would be like assuming anybody that is presented the Copernican theories concerning astronomy would be convinced of their truth. Yet the church leaders obviously felt otherwise. Unless you look through the telescope, you'll never "get" what Copernicus got. You have to go through the injunction to be a "scientific peer". That is what science is all about --- empiricism, direct observation and experience. And ch'i can't be directly observed externally. It has to be "felt", as they say, a very internal phenomena.

The only way to validate the truth or non-truth of ch'i is to go through the injunction that are supposed to disclose the experience of ch'i, and then to submit and compare your findings to "peers" that have also gone through said injunctions. That is science, pure and simple.

No one is going to "prove" ch'i by putting out a candle from 3 feet away, or tossing someone with a 2 inch punch. That's really cool, but it doesn't prove anything. The only way to "prove" ch'i (or God) is to do the science yourself.

And the scientific method still cannot give us an answer, and therefor Ki has about as much relevence as religion.

I'm sorry, Mike, but that was a very inane response.

I devoted several paragraphs to this thread detailing what exactly "the scientific method" is, how it is not exclusively materialistic, and how Ch'i can be approached scientifically. And, even mentioned how the "hard" sciences can study the external correlates of ch'i and meditation (such as variations in the EEG machine). Then, you come and declare "science cannot give us an answer" --- apparently for no other reason than you say so.

If you're going to make rigid, authoritarian statements please back them up. Thank you. :shrug:

Later all. Keep up the discussion. This is going quite well.

 

[MisterMike]

I'm not questioning your definition, although it is different than other's I've seen on here. The "real" wordage doesn't even concern me.

But we're trying to apply this method to Ki, which in my opinion, is like trying to prove religion. I feel they are both beliefs.

 

[heretic888]

I'm not questioning your definition, although it is different than other's I've seen on here. The "real" wordage doesn't even concern me.

If you don't seem to care about what "real" science is, then perhaps you shouldn't be making claims about what it can and cannot do.

But we're trying to apply this method to Ki, which in my opinion, is like trying to prove religion. I feel they are both beliefs.

Only popular (and politically correct) opinion has given the illusion that certain aspects of religion cannot be proven and/or disproven. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true.

*Any* claim that proposes the ability to replicate an experience of some kind is under the realm of the scientific method. That is the scientific method in action. People need to learn that religion and science are not diametrically opposite as they would like to believe.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by heretic888
If you don't seem to care about what "real" science is, then perhaps you shouldn't be making claims about what it can and cannot do.



Only popular (and politically correct) opinion has given the illusion that certain aspects of religion cannot be proven and/or disproven. Just because someone believes something doesn't make it true.

*Any* claim that proposes the ability to replicate an experience of some kind is under the realm of the scientific method. That is the scientific method in action. People need to learn that religion and science are not diametrically opposite as they would like to believe.

No I'm not. Don't twist what I say. I'm not concerned with what EVERYONE thinks the scientific method definition is. I've got a good enough handle on it. It's not the topic.

So what can you say to the topic of the existance of Ki?

Please, enlighten us

Oh ya, that somehow, it can be studied scientifically. That is, once we have a definition of what it is and a theory of how it exists.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by heretic888
You're again thinking ch'i is a physical force. It is not. A physicist, biologist, or chemist would be just as incapable of proving that ch'i exists using external measurements as they are proving that minds exist. Of course, we all know that minds exist. Why?? Direct, firsthand experience. See the pattern??

The fundamental assumption of your argument is that there are physical forces and there are spiritual forces. This is where your entire argument fails. Reread my post and combine the physical and spiritual forces. Look, NOTHING exist outside what we can sense and the sooner you shift your mind from your duality and realize that the physical experience is spiritual, the more science will start to unify with religion/spirituality.

upnorth

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by heretic888


1. That's a very nice theory and all, but it has one major flaw: it fails to distinguish from correlation and causation. Is the experience of ch'i the result of electropolar activity?? Or is the electropolar activity the result of ch'i?? The mind can have some very real biochemical effects on the body, but you aren't going to hear me claiming that the mind is just a collection of chemicals and neurons. Its the same with ch'i here.

2. *chuckles* I think Lucas got it backwards. Ch'i (or whatever word for "univeral cosmic force/energy/essence" you wish to insert here) is not created by living beings. Living beings are created by ch'i. After all, this assumes that before there was "life" there was no ch'i --- which doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

3. I'd assume they're all over the world here and there.

4. This is without a doubt a logical fallacy.

This would be like assuming anybody that is presented the Copernican theories concerning astronomy would be convinced of their truth. Yet the church leaders obviously felt otherwise. Unless you look through the telescope, you'll never "get" what Copernicus got. You have to go through the injunction to be a "scientific peer". That is what science is all about --- empiricism, direct observation and experience. And ch'i can't be directly observed externally. It has to be "felt", as they say, a very internal phenomena.

The only way to validate the truth or non-truth of ch'i is to go through the injunction that are supposed to disclose the experience of ch'i, and then to submit and compare your findings to "peers" that have also gone through said injunctions. That is science, pure and simple.

No one is going to "prove" ch'i by putting out a candle from 3 feet away, or tossing someone with a 2 inch punch. That's really cool, but it doesn't prove anything. The only way to "prove" ch'i (or God) is to do the science yourself.

1. The electromagnetic force measurable along nerve pathways is the result of the transmission of electrons in the form of a message to your muscles. This signal begins in the brain and spreads throughout the nerves to its intended target. Your assertion that chi could be the cause of this has absolutely no basis.

2. Perhaps. Chaos theory states that there is a self-ordering property to the universe. This could account for the various states of matter we see in the universe and it could be called chi. This theory does not explain alot of other things about chi though.

3. Don't assume anything or you will be susceptible to charletenry. Where are these adepts?

4. You contradict yourself. Peer review is not review by "friends" its review by anyone, including the non-believer. In fact, one of the most important thing about science is showing a person who completely disagrees with your hypothesis your evidence to support your hypothesis. The only way to support the existance of chi is to show its existance in the physcial world. It must be detected and measured or it does not exist.

If you can present some physical evidence of chi, please do so.

John

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Could you give this neophyte in Chinese culture and arts a definition of the terms you used here. Since you state there is a distinction, I would like to know from what frame of reference you and others are posting from.

Thank You

Heretic888,

I know I must be on your ignore list

Could you answer my questions? I would like to learn.

Thank You

 

[Cruentus]

Hmmm....

I've heard the comparison between Chi and Religion, which I think is a poor comparison.

My understanding of Chi is that it is an actual, physical force. This would mean that it would be measurable somehow, even if we haven't figured out how to measure it yet. It would also be observable.

Religion refers to a belief about God (or Gods, or No God). If something does exist that created our reality, then it would exist beyond the limitations of our reality, meaning that it would be imeasurable. Or, if the athiests are correct, then there wouldn't be a god, meaning that it wouldn't be measurable.

I am not trying to get into a religious discussion here, but to me Religion involves a belief, not a measurable force. "Chi" is supposed to be an actual measurable force...not just a belief.

So either Chi exists, or it doesn't...it doesn't matter what I believe. It can either be proven to exist or it cannot because it doesn't.

I believe that there is plenty of evidence that it at least exists. Acupuncture lends us enough evidence of Chi, I believe. I think our real challange is in discovering a way of understanding how it works, how to measure it, how it may or may not be important to us, and what its limitations are (what it can and can't do). That, I think, is our real challange, not tryong to "prove" its existance which seems to me to have been already proven.

PAUL

 

[SThiess]

Just because you cannot proof it scientifically, does not mean that it does not exist. This is one of the biggest misconceptions of man kind. The whole chinese medicine is based on the principle of CHI and it has proofen itself in the meantime that it works. And there are also several different forms of CHI. Without chi you would not be alife. Scientists are able to show the existance of CHI but till today that have no clue where it comes from and how to scientifically proof it's existance. The best thing is just to accept things and not to proof them all the time.