The different points of a martial artist.

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
at a beginners level, different martial arts systems appear to have contradictory principles. this makes it difficult to understand the subtleties when you are trying to train in 4 or 5 arts simultaneously.
a high ranking judoka can display incredible aiki skill......but he got there by way of a different route than the aiki guy.
if you study judo and aiki at the same time, you are learning a set of principles that dont really mate well at a beginners level, and both your judo and aiki skill will suffer because of it, increasing the time it takes to learn.

if you were practicing arnis, it has a different skill set than iaido, while both use weapons, the principles differ enough that one might hinder the effective learning of the other.

thats not to say that someone who might be considered a master of arnis would have trouble learning the iaido skill set.......they would see principle connections, and possibly be able to adapt faster because of their knowledge.

i think its better to stick with one thing and gain some proficiency before getting your feet wet in other arts.

think of it as a plate of food......you have some mashed potatoes with gravy, some glazed carrots, a slice of succulent turkey, and some salad. Each thing tastes wonderful on its own, and compliments the other food..........now take your fork, pour gravy over everything and mix it together. it still has the nutritional value.........but instead of a nice presentation, now it looks like barf.
 

Icewater

Orange Belt
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
71
Reaction score
2
After giving thought to what defines a martial artist. Skill? Well, not all MA have skill. Mind? Not all MA are wise or smart or can even concentrate. Spirit? I know plenty of MA that are superficial, depressed, and even mean. But they are all Martial Artists. The closest I can come to a definition is: someone learning the art of fighting.
 

jdinca

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,297
Reaction score
11
Location
SF Bay Area
Icewater said:
After giving thought to what defines a martial artist. Skill? Well, not all MA have skill. Mind? Not all MA are wise or smart or can even concentrate. Spirit? I know plenty of MA that are superficial, depressed, and even mean. But they are all Martial Artists. The closest I can come to a definition is: someone learning the art of fighting.
But are those MA's who don't have skill, can't concentrate or are depressed trying to improve upon those weaknesses? If a person is on the mat, then chances are he/she is trying to improve skills. As for concentration (mind), I had a heck of a time remembering techniques my first few belts. In my current belt, it took about 30 minutes per kata for me to remember each of the four I have to know. As for the spirit, that can be a tough one. There are people you describe in the martial arts world, which is unfortunate for all of us. It brings down the whole field. But if those people know that they have those traits and are trying to be a better person, then yeah, they're trying to "walk the walk".

There will always be examples of those who don't live up to the "values" of whatever it is they're doing in life. Remember, for every Joe Montana, there's a Jim Druckenmiller or Ryan Leaf.

I don't really consider those who care only about learning how to fight to be Martial Artists. I consider them fighters.
 

Dalum

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
114
Reaction score
2
Location
Tri-Cities, MI
Gosh, it almost sounds like we are talking about religion. (I don't want to go there or hijack this thread into that forray...) My point is that it's like one going out to find himself or find a path with a higher being. Along the way they find that there is a great way to think, live, feel, believe, etc... Then they go and learn another way. After a while, they will start to pick and choose what fits the best within their lifestyle. It's about the same here.

There are those that will cross train and end up using what best suits them. This can be a double edged sword as well... One can end up limiting one's self by inadvertently being lazy as they believe that it's within their comfort zone as they collect their core techniques.

Anyway, I'm a firm believer in what works and it shouldn't matter what you did to get your end result as long as you did it peroperly. So to go back into the original statements of the thread... It doesn't necessarily have to fall under studying under various styles to achieve all that, I feel it's about picking up on the best of what you study... Be it out of 1 style or many.
 

beauty_in_the_sai

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
127
Reaction score
2
Location
Maryland
bMunky, does your sensei have a life? Not only does she have to keep up her own skill in each art, but she also has to teach others them too. I'd find that wearing. Back when I was only in taekwondo, does that mean I wasn't a martial artist? It certainly got me out of plenty of scrapes for being one point. I agree with cross training, but to be an expert at everything, you'd have to practically be a monk to martial arts. Just eat, sleep, and do martial arts, nothing else. I've cross-trained into ninjutsu and JKD and have dabbed in juijutsu, but still have my base art, which is my style. A mixture of Jeet Kune Do footwork and philosophy, taekwondo kicks, punches, traps, and joint locks (go figure my TKD instructor taught traps and joint locks) and ninjutsu stealth and weapons. I think I'm pretty well rounded. I've dabbed in the "6 points" but, due to my back, can't do throws too well. I'm not dissin' on your instructor, but I don't believe you need to be a 6 point expert to be a martial artist.

Becky
 
OP
M

muffin_cup_of_death

Guest
Ok, first off, you cant limit a complete martial artist to just 6 points...there are endless points that must be sharpened before one can be complete.
I am a big believer in cross-training, and expanding knowledge and training. I personally read everything I can on as much as I can. I try to train, and discuss different topics of growth with my fellow students, and other martial buddies. I have studied for 10 years, and I consider myself still a baby. But I have trained in about 11 different MA's in that time. 2 years in Okinawan Karate as a beginner. Then went into JKD real deep, and that set the stage. I then gained brown belts in BJJ, kempo, and judo. I was an assistant kickboxing instuctor for a year, and also studied Shaolin Animals, Ninjutsu, and trained with a direct student of MAs Oyama, and two instructors who were taught by Ted Wong and Insanto. I do it all. My primary art I would say is just plain old MMA, with heavy JKD concepts influence, which can be ANYTHING! For stand up fighting, I can use JKD, kickboxing, kempo, kung-fu, or kyokushinkai techniques...and for ground I use nothing else but BJJ. As for weapons, I am very proficient with chuks, swords, shurikens, and just about anything you put in my hands. But thats onlt the tip of the iceberg. A complete martial artist must be strong in body, heart, mind, and spirit. They must be role models for society, and peers. They play a bigger role than just training, and being able to kick ***. There is just too much to list. Everyone is different, and will react, and do well in different areas. Everyone must eventually find their own way, or they will become a programmed robot, and spitting image of someone else, or their teacher. Find your own points, and sharpen them to your liking, there is no right or wrong way if it suits you.
 

CuongNhuka

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
2,596
Reaction score
31
Location
NE
hay muffin, check your user CP. i gave you a little gift. by the way, i'm Coungnhuka, the screeming liberal. aka john, aka that one loser alot of people here seem to hate. joke, but you get my point, right?

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John (the screeming liberal)
 

Gemini

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
3,546
Reaction score
37
Location
The Desert
Hey muffin, Welcome to MT! Why don't you post over in the Meet and Greet section. We have many MMAers that would know doubt love to pick your brain. :)
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
i hate to sound like a real critic here.......but when you train in multiple arts over 10 years you really only pick up bits and pieces.
if someone has 10 black belts..........they are still just a black belt, you have to put in time to really start to understand the principles, if you jump from one to the next it becomes a jumbled mess.
 

beauty_in_the_sai

Green Belt
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Messages
127
Reaction score
2
Location
Maryland
BlackCatBonz said:
i hate to sound like a real critic here.......but when you train in multiple arts over 10 years you really only pick up bits and pieces.
if someone has 10 black belts..........they are still just a black belt, you have to put in time to really start to understand the principles, if you jump from one to the next it becomes a jumbled mess.

Amen cat bonz. I do TKD, and have only picked up pieces in other arts. I found it way too hard and confusing to try to master every art I've tried.
 
OP
M

muffin_cup_of_death

Guest
On the comment about the jumbled mess....Over 10 years, about 1/3 of my life is a long time. I did more than pick up bits and peices. I usually stayed with each art about a year or more, in that time, I learn how to train, and how to master the basics and fundamentals. All the black belt material is basically flashy tournament crap anyway. SO, I absorb what I feel I need to build on, and when I feel its time to move on, I move on, taking everything I learned with me, and continue on using it to my own personal training preference. I study hard, and I put it to use often in combat application, and tons of full contact sparring sessions with many varieties of opponents. I use what I like, and discard what I dont, and my assiates, and students do as well, and they are all unique, and very good in their own ways. maybe not everyone can do it like that, but it works for me.
 

Navarre

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 29, 2005
Messages
1,175
Reaction score
6
Location
Huntington, WV
muffin_cup_of_death said:
On the comment about the jumbled mess....

Are you talking about my comment here?

Sorry, maybe I'm confused on threads. (or maybe not, I dunno)

Well, all I can say is one has to decide for themselves what works for them. If you feel your approach is giving you all the understanding you need of each art and allows you the opportunity to advance in The Art, then that is good.
 

DeLamar.J

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
910
Reaction score
22
Location
Barberton, Ohio, USA
It sounds like your teacher loves to cross train, which is important if you want to be a good fighter. However, I think it is very important to have a solid base in at least one art before you go bouncing around in all kinds of different styles. Alot of styles are contradicting to each other, and that can confuse a new student.
I highly recomend the JKD philosophy, combined with basic boxing, and grappling skills to kick off your training. That type of training will help you cut through the bull**** that has become of martial arts in alot of schools these days claiming to teach 10 styles. With the JKD training philosophy, and your BASIC boxing and grappling, you will be surprised how many people you are already ahead of in your quest to crosstrain.
 

arnisador

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 28, 2001
Messages
44,563
Reaction score
441
Location
Terre Haute, IN
DeLamar.J said:
I highly recomend the JKD philosophy, combined with basic boxing, and grappling skills to kick off your training. That type of training will help you cut through the bull**** that has become of martial arts in alot of schools these days claiming to teach 10 styles. With the JKD training philosophy, and your BASIC boxing and grappling, you will be surprised how many people you are already ahead of in your quest to crosstrain.

This is sound advice. There are of course many other ways to go too, but this is an excellent, proven, and relatively rapid way to go, that will fit with most any other art you may be doing at the time.
 
OP
M

muffin_cup_of_death

Guest
Yes that I totally agree on. My core philosophy, and training methods start with JKD, everything else I've studied has come after, and I apply the philosophy to all I do, and it DOES work wonders. When I was kickboxing, I would use many Jun Fan methods and got away with it because they blend so well.Then when I began learning BJJ, I had trapping and closing the distance skills, so I took it from there, and added the ground skills to that, so I am proficient from any range, any position, and ready for any situation that can arise. I even learned how to make everyday legal items into lethal weapons you can carry at all times, and never get in trouble for. Example: ink pens, pencils, lighters, key chains, and keys, letter openers, salt ( for blinding) and anything else you can pick up and stab, bash, throw, or use as a makeshift weapon...hey I think I'll start a makeshift weapon thread! LOL.
anyway, yea, JKD is a great solid base for starters and for those who want the real deal, real fast.
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
muffin_cup_of_death said:
On the comment about the jumbled mess....Over 10 years, about 1/3 of my life is a long time. I did more than pick up bits and peices.

1. I usually stayed with each art about a year or more, in that time, I learn how to train, and how to master the basics and fundamentals.

2.All the black belt material is basically flashy tournament crap anyway. SO, I absorb what I feel I need to build on, and when I feel its time to move on, I move on, taking everything I learned with me, and continue on using it to my own personal training preference. I study hard, and I put it to use often in combat application, and tons of full contact sparring sessions with many varieties of opponents. I use what I like, and discard what I dont, and my assiates, and students do as well, and they are all unique, and very good in their own ways. maybe not everyone can do it like that, but it works for me.

1. i dont think a year in any given art is nearly enough time to master the basics of said art.......and i say this even to the ones that have exceptional martial arts abilities.
the basics in any art usually include anything up to and including black belt. if you're able to get a black belt in a year......you're studying with the wrong teachers.

2. i do not understand this statement at all. thats like saying any art out there above black belt contains no useful info as it is all "flashy tournament crap".
when you start approaching black belt is when you start to learn the fundamentals of an art. the training usually starts to get a bit harder, the concepts become a bit tougher to grasp.
in short, black belt is the time you start to really learn to put the basics to work.

i was never a big believer in Bruce Lee's method.......i think he was above average, but not spectacular.
i think he has influenced a lot of people in a negative way with the whole "absorb what is useful" concept. it makes for lazy training and people that throw out something potentially useful, but because they are limited in their knowledge, did not see it as such.

if my whole jumbled mess comment offends you.....im terribly sorry. but that is what it usually appears to be.
 

DeLamar.J

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
910
Reaction score
22
Location
Barberton, Ohio, USA
BlackCatBonz said:
1. i dont think a year in any given art is nearly enough time to master the basics of said art.......and i say this even to the ones that have exceptional martial arts abilities.
the basics in any art usually include anything up to and including black belt. if you're able to get a black belt in a year......you're studying with the wrong teachers.

2. i do not understand this statement at all. thats like saying any art out there above black belt contains no useful info as it is all "flashy tournament crap".
when you start approaching black belt is when you start to learn the fundamentals of an art. the training usually starts to get a bit harder, the concepts become a bit tougher to grasp.
in short, black belt is the time you start to really learn to put the basics to work.

i was never a big believer in Bruce Lee's method.......i think he was above average, but not spectacular.
i think he has influenced a lot of people in a negative way with the whole "absorb what is useful" concept. it makes for lazy training and people that throw out something potentially useful, but because they are limited in their knowledge, did not see it as such.

if my whole jumbled mess comment offends you.....im terribly sorry. but that is what it usually appears to be.
I understand what you mean. People must have self honesty for the JKD philosophy to work properly. Some people will throw out something that is useful because they dont have the intelligence grasp an advanced concept, or they did not spend enough time on the technique,
this is where self honesty is very important. Unfortunately, Bruce Lee's philosophy seems to attract some real assclowns that really have no idea what the philosphy is all about.
Aikido for example, is a very effective style. I have not spent the time needed to make it useful, so do I discard it as useless because I'm not able to use it? no. I didnt spend the time needed to make it useful(honesty). This is where the philosophy is misunderstood. As soon as assclown runs into some techniques that requires some real effort to become applicable, they discard it. In this case, that type of person was never practicing the real JKD philosophy to begin with.
 

kroh

Brown Belt
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
403
Reaction score
8
Location
Rhode Island, USA
BlackCatBonz said:
1.
i was never a big believer in Bruce Lee's method.......i think he was above average, but not spectacular.
i think he has influenced a lot of people in a negative way with the whole "absorb what is useful" concept. it makes for lazy training and people that throw out something potentially useful, but because they are limited in their knowledge, did not see it as such.

I play in JKD and can say that it is a very effective way to train if you train with one of the people train the art because it is effective not because it was done by Bruce Lee. My personal opinion was that Bruce Lee had A.D.D. and an adrenaline addiction (wink...joke). It seemed as though he didn't have the patience for the higher level teachings of his base art ( as he never really finished the cirriculum). He wanted effective and he wanted it right now. But if you look at where JKD has gone since his death (due to some great pioneers who have really deepend the study ), you will find more than just the religious psychobable toted by the Bruce Groupies. A person who trains in JKD explores other avenues of combat and tries to ferret out the core of other system so he can understand them (to either learn to use it or to beat it).

I beleive that Kosho Shorei Ryu does the same thing. It is a study of combat rather than a practice of combat where the Kenshi (a practitioner of Kempo) seeks to learn the natural laws of movement rather than just the "do this technique" method of instant gratification that you see in a lot of martial arts today. Real JKD does the same thing. Find the core of a movement (principle) and you don't need to learn 150 techniques because the one principle covers them all. That is what is meant by discard what is useless. Find the principle and the rest will fall into place.

I also agree with the statement that system hopping is really not the way to go. For real hard in depth training, you really need to dig deep into what you are learning to get anything out of it. Cross training is a good thing as it can give new insight into what you were doing before. Jumping from one system to another without a firm grasp in what you are doing is like going to high school and getting your diploma. Instead of going off to college to get a deeper knowledge you then go and start at another high school.

cool discussion with good points on both sides..and since this is only an opinion, throw it out if it doesn't "work for you." **Wink**

Regards,
Walt
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
DeLamar.J said:
I understand what you mean. People must have self honesty for the JKD philosophy to work properly. Some people will throw out something that is useful because they dont have the intelligence grasp an advanced concept, or they did not spend enough time on the technique,
this is where self honesty is very important. Unfortunately, Bruce Lee's philosophy seems to attract some real assclowns that really have no idea what the philosphy is all about.
Aikido for example, is a very effective style. I have not spent the time needed to make it useful, so do I discard it as useless because I'm not able to use it? no. I didnt spend the time needed to make it useful(honesty). This is where the philosophy is misunderstood. As soon as assclown runs into some techniques that requires some real effort to become applicable, they discard it. In this case, that type of person was never practicing the real JKD philosophy to begin with.

this is very true.........i also personally think that the JKD philosophy works better for people that have an advanced knowledge of martial arts, usually a 1st or 2nd degree black belt. you need to understand "form" so that you can better understand "formlessness"......you need to understand "way" to better understand "no way".
the people that are considered great JKD teachers already have established themselves as students of other martial arts. Most people can study a system for a year and still not understand a rising block's nuances or effective uses.
Most traditional systems offer a lot more than they appear to on first glance.......but the casual student doesnt stick around long enough to learn more than the most basic of basics......and this is all you will get in the first year.
 

BlackCatBonz

Master Black Belt
Joined
Aug 14, 2004
Messages
1,233
Reaction score
35
Location
Port Hope ON
kroh said:
I play in JKD and can say that it is a very effective way to train if you train with one of the people train the art because it is effective not because it was done by Bruce Lee. My personal opinion was that Bruce Lee had A.D.D. and an adrenaline addiction (wink...joke).

1. It seemed as though he didn't have the patience for the higher level teachings of his base art ( as he never really finished the cirriculum). He wanted effective and he wanted it right now. But if you look at where JKD has gone since his death (due to some great pioneers who have really deepend the study ), you will find more than just the religious psychobable toted by the Bruce Groupies.

2. A person who trains in JKD explores other avenues of combat and tries to ferret out the core of other system so he can understand them (to either learn to use it or to beat it).

3.a) I beleive that Kosho Shorei Ryu does the same thing. It is a study of combat rather than a practice of combat where the Kenshi (a practitioner of Kempo) seeks to learn the natural laws of movement rather than just the "do this technique" method of instant gratification that you see in a lot of martial arts today. 3.b) Real JKD does the same thing. Find the core of a movement (principle) and you don't need to learn 150 techniques because the one principle covers them all. That is what is meant by discard what is useless. Find the principle and the rest will fall into place.

4. I also agree with the statement that system hopping is really not the way to go. For real hard in depth training, you really need to dig deep into what you are learning to get anything out of it. Cross training is a good thing as it can give new insight into what you were doing before. Jumping from one system to another without a firm grasp in what you are doing is like going to high school and getting your diploma. Instead of going off to college to get a deeper knowledge you then go and start at another high school.

cool discussion with good points on both sides..and since this is only an opinion, throw it out if it doesn't "work for you." **Wink**

Regards,
Walt

1. I totally agree with this statement. I'm not saying that he wasn't a talented individual.....he put a lot into his training, more than most people do, he really had a drive that attracted people to him, his charisma more than his martial arts skill.

2. I believe this is also true on a base level. I'm not trying to speak for JKD artists here.....but i think that to someone like Dan Inosanto, it's more the science of movement and trying to pass that along.....He is such an accomplished martial artist without the JKD philosophy.....but, I'd be willing to wager that his martial arts experience has shaped his JKD philosophy or way, the same way that someone like Dr. Beasley's experience has shaped his.

3.a) I hate to be a Kosho Ryu pusher.....but you are exactly correct. This makes Kosho a lot harder to learn, but it also makes it more effective and easier to implement in the end (IMO).
3.b) this is why i tell people that the JKD philosophy is not something new and improved.......its always existed in martial arts, but dont use it as an excuse to toss something because you think it doesnt apply.

4. I really believe that jumping from system to system will only give someone a bunch of conflicting principles that impairs learning and hinders their martial arts skill. if you go to 5 different schools, the core principles that a beginner learns will be different. those principles are needed to build a solid foundation to further develop an understanding of movement.
You will eventually discover something if you keep at it long enough, but it will take you longer to really understand what the heck you are doing.
 

Latest Discussions

Top