The difference in Poomsae

[terryl965]

What would be the difference in Poomsae from area to area, what I mean is most WTF style school have no real ideal about the proper techs. while alot of Kukkiwon school spend countless hours on them. Why would there be so many difference in poomsae if we all do the same that was written before us.

 

[exile]

What would be the difference in Poomsae from area to area, what I mean is most WTF style school have no real ideal about the proper techs. while alot of Kukkiwon school spend countless hours on them. Why would there be so many difference in poomsae if we all do the same that was written before us.

You've got some terrific thread topics going here, Terry! As far as poomsae differences go, I've only trained with my instructor so don't know how things work elsewhere. But I'll say this: he's KKW, but he doesn't really emphasize the Taegeuks much---hardly at all. Up till dan rank, it's all Palgwes, and I have a sneaking suspicion he knows some of the Pyung Ahns as well. His lineage is Song Moo Kwan, and he is very conscious of the Kwan background to his art. We train the living daylights out of the poomsae---he's more tolerant of imperfections when you're a beginner, but starting from blue belt up he's very concerned with correct form. His own performance of poomsae are kind of awe-inspiring---power, grace and flow all at once, perfect balance---he's won several state titles in forms competition, so it's clear that the forms mean a lot to him, and their hidden applications. But that's him---maybe it just comes down to how important poomsae are to the individual sabumnim? If you really think, as he does, that they are the foundations, and hold all the secrets, of the art, then you're going to teach that way. But clearly not everyone feels the same way...

 

[matt.m]

What would be the difference in Poomsae from area to area, what I mean is most WTF style school have no real ideal about the proper techs. while alot of Kukkiwon school spend countless hours on them. Why would there be so many difference in poomsae if we all do the same that was written before us.

I have to go with exile, I am more concerned with my school than everyone else's. Even though I have seen 3 other schools in Saint Louis and know for a fact that their black belts would be my rank in my school. That is besides the point. What is on target is that at Moo Sul Kwan poomse is hardcore taught. Poomse is a big deal about what makes tae kwon do, tae kwon do. I personally believe that if you don't work hard to do well at poomse then it is no point to do it. That is the general thought among the higher dans as well.

 

[IcemanSK]

I have to go with exile, I am more concerned with my school than everyone else's. Even though I have seen 3 other schools in Saint Louis and know for a fact that their black belts would be my rank in my school. That is besides the point. What is on target is that at Moo Sul Kwan poomse is hardcore taught. Poomse is a big deal about what makes tae kwon do, tae kwon do. I personally believe that if you don't work hard to do well at poomse then it is no point to do it. That is the general thought among the higher dans as well.

This hits the nail on the head, for me. Poomsae has a great deal to do w/ the holistic nature of the art. As a Marine, you understand the thing makes discipline are the details, not the "big" things. Kids see the "tricking" in the Final Fu & think that's TKD. They don't know that Daniel Sterling (the guy who won it) spends countless hours going over the details of poomsae. It doesn't make for interesting tv. But it makes for a good Taekwondoan.

 

[zDom]

To me, poomsea IS taekwondo.

Those who rush past forms and spend all their time on just basics or free fighting are missing out, IMO.

 

[exile]

To me, poomsea IS taekwondo.

Those who rush past forms and spend all their time on just basics or free fighting are missing out, IMO.

Agreed. I do think though that students' attitudes towards poomsae can to some extent be shaped by how instructors present them in the early stages of training---i.e., by what they tell students about what the poomse actually are. Not all instructors make it clear to students at the white belt stage that the Kicho they're about to learn is a kind of living record of certain physical responses, making up the fighting system that the art consists of, to specific kinds of aggression---that the poomsae encode techniques of combat, in other words---and that as time goes on, the student will be shown some of those techniques and will be taught how to extract them from the poomsae. I don't think it's wise to teach students in their very early stages of training the full range of effective nastiness built into the Kichos, Palgwes and/or Taegeuks, but they should at least be told of the existence of such applications, and maybe shown one or two at one point just to corroborate the instructor's statements about poomsae. If the poomsae are simply presented as something you do in order to gain belt rank, then a lot of students are probably going to want to bypass them along the lines zDom refers to in favor of the `good' stuff, without knowing what they're missing. In the end, I think the way students think about poomsae is determined by what their instructors tell them (or don't tell them, quite often I suspect) about the actual uses of poomsae in TKD as a fighting art...

 

[matt.m]

You guys are bringing up all good points. Now let me tell you about zDom. Besides aggravating him before my competition begins for some quick last minute pointers.....I have noticed a direct coorelation of the following:

1) He is masterful at 2nd dan in poomse, why else would I seek his help?
2) He wins BB division sparring 9 out of 10 times.


As a green belt I understand that poomse is just not a neat pattern for tests. Nope, each piece is indeed its own technique. I guess though from prior experiences in life as well as starting in Hapkido, Judo, and wrestling before Tae Kwon Do it just seems I get it quicker.

Besides, Tae Kwon Do would not be the art of smashing with foot and fist if it were not true in application.

 

[exile]

I understand that poomse is just not a neat pattern for tests. Nope, each piece is indeed its own technique. I guess though from prior experiences in life as well as starting in Hapkido, Judo, and wrestling before Tae Kwon Do it just seems I get it quicker.

Matt---seems like you really do get it quicker, given your competitive success! Cool that you and zDom can connect at tournaments...

Besides, Tae Kwon Do would not be the art of smashing with foot and fist if it were not true in application.

Yup! Something always to bear in mind---but it's not just us: the karate guys also seem to be reminding themselves of this a lot lately. I've sometimes thought it would be an interesting experiment to expand the poomsae competition at tournaments to include Boon Hae (which Iceman pointed out recently is the Korean analogue of bunkai = applications), but I can't really imagine in detail how that would be organized...