The Difference between Longfist Kicks and Taiji Kicks

[Wing Woo Gar81 5]

My first Jow Ga school had slippery floors and I used to wonder. "Why are all these floor so freaking slippery.?" They were always slippery. It definitely forces how energy moves. My garage has a slippery floor as well. It's definitely a good to experience it at least a couple of times in one's training.

Both my Sifu and my Sigung ALWAYS kept the concrete floors in the gym waxed and polished. We wear cotton soled slippers to make it even more slippery. Then if you were getting confident they would sprinkle dance wax around your feet to remove any last bits of friction. The body has to keep itself up and controlling your kicks was necessary to avoid ending up on your butt on cold concrete. That floor is why my root is good and solid regardless of the surface I’m on. People in striking arts often rely on bare feet sticking to soft mats to make up for their lack of balance or rooting ability. They will fall over on a slippery floor. No root no punch.

 

[isshinryuronin36 36]

Both my Sifu and my Sigung ALWAYS kept the concrete floors in the gym waxed and polished. We wear cotton soled slippers to make it even more slippery. Then if you were getting confident they would sprinkle dance wax around your feet to remove any last bits of friction. The body has to keep itself up and controlling your kicks was necessary to avoid ending up on your butt on cold concrete. That floor is why my root is good and solid regardless of the surface I’m on. People in striking arts often rely on bare feet sticking to soft mats to make up for their lack of balance or rooting ability. They will fall over on a slippery floor. No root no punch.

Footing is very important, and like you said, we get used to ideal conditions when we practice. But when our techniques are actually needed outside the school, conditions will likely not be ideal. Practicing outside with shoes and on uneven/sloped or slippery/very high friction terrain, sand or gravel will be very helpful. If you're not comfortable on your feet everything else will be off.

 

[Wing Woo Gar81 5]

Footing is very important, and like you said, we get used to ideal conditions when we practice. But when our techniques are actually needed outside the school, conditions will likely not be ideal. Practicing outside with shoes and on uneven/sloped or slippery/very high friction terrain, sand or gravel will be very helpful. If you're not comfortable on your feet everything else will be off.

This is why 90% of the time we train on slippery surfaces. Occasionally we wear shoes outside on asphalt or dirt. Slippery surfaces ARE the least forgiving for consistently training. Bare feet stick to most surfaces, particularly mats or wood floors. Slippery floor with cotton soled shoes exposes the things most people don’t even know are missing. I’m quite comfortable with full speed and power in these conditions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang147 177]

This is why 90% of the time we train on slippery surfaces.

The traditional "hip throw" requires both feet to slide backward and use hip to bounce opponent's belly up. Since the "slide backward" is difficult to do on uneven surface, the modern "hip throw" has been changed into "waist lifting" that you lift up your opponent's waist instead.

Some techniques work nice in indoor flat surface. It doesn't work well in outdoor uneven surface.

 

[Same Trick91 42]

I trained Yang but not from a lineage that I know of. Jow Ga Students are encouraged to learn and practice it as a way to balance us out and to prevent muscle tension. Some students only go that far but the option to learn function is available if the student wants to follow that path.

So the application of the Taijiquan you practice derives from Jow Ga style ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the application of the Taijiquan you practice derives from Jow Ga style ?

No. It's Yang. I trained Jow Ga separately. The school had 2 separates classes. This isn't my school but it's what you'll see in a lot of Jow Ga schools. One class for Jow Ga Kung Fu. A separate class for Tai Chi.

Here's different Jow Ga school

 

[Kung Fu Wang147 177]

Testing is done with those developing the same skill sets, using traditional methods.

Developing and testing are themselves forms of use.
Once the skill is developed, as @Same Trick mentioned, how it's expressed can take many forms.

If you only train kicks in a form, how can you learn kicks that don't exist in your form? For example, Taiji has font toes kick, front heel kick, and outside crescent kick. How about roundhouse kick, side kick, inside crescent kick, back kick, hook kick, ...

If you learn kicks from the solo drill training, it doesn't matter whether your Taiji form may contain inside crescent kick, roundhouse kick, ... or not.

I do believe basic kicks should be considered as the foundation of all MA systems.

 

[windwalker099147 177]

I do believe basic kicks should be considered as the foundation of all MA systems.

I don't. Your point is?

You seem to equate your training with what everyone else's training should produce, yet you never demonstrate the other methods of training that you criticize.

If you haven't done that, how can you require others to reproduce what you do?

I do think basic skills are foundational to martial arts. That doesn't mean every method has to contain the same set of skills, or train them in the same way.

In the video “Why do we practice Ma Bu Chong Chui (MBCC)”, they practice slow postures.
They aren't practicing any of the kicks you mentioned.
Do you feel their practice is lacking because of that?

 

[Appledog52 25]

A while back I posed an interesting question. If Wing Chun's straight blast is such an important and effective technique in martial arts, why isn't it in Tai Chi?

Nobody could answer back then but I suspect Trip might have an interesting answer today.

But if this problem (with tai chi) is really to be fixed it will take a large amount of money. It won't be fixed by sharing secrets on forums.

 

[Kung Fu Wang147 177]

A while back I posed an interesting question. If Wing Chun's straight blast is such an important and effective technique in martial arts, why isn't it in Tai Chi?

Nobody could answer back then but I suspect Trip might have an interesting answer today.

But if this problem (with tai chi) is really to be fixed it will take a large amount of money. It won't be fixed by sharing secrets on forums.

I do believe that Taiji people think punch and kick are both low level MA skill.

Many years ago in Taiwan, a guy wanted to compete in San Da tournament. He tied a coconut on ropes between 2 trees. Every day, he just punched on that bouncing back and force coconut between trees. A years later, he competed the San Da tournament and won the first place. Nobody could escape his "chain punch" head hunting. This further prove that you can develop true combat skill without training any particular MA system.

This video prove that "chain punch" is not unique in the WC system.



"Chain punch" doesn't work against "rhino guard".

 

[JowGaWolf]

If Wing Chun's straight blast is such an important and effective technique in martial arts, why isn't it in Tai Chi?

Step 1: Define , show, and use the correct application of Straight Blast.
Step 2: Define the concept and principle of the straight blast.

Step 1 and Step 2 is what I believe the accurate way understanding martial arts application. Simply Put: The application gives birth to the form and principal. I do not think application can be developed or fully understand the other way around.


Step 3: Understand Tai Chi and your use: Are you only using what is in the form or are you taking what's in the form and applying the concepts techniques and principles of the form. Do you only do a one strike attack in Tai Chi because the form only shows one strike. Or do you learn how to chain the strikes found in tai chi. For example:
Tai chi Practitioner punches a guy in the face and sees an opportunity to punch him again. Does the practitioner punch the guy in the face again or does he limit himself to one punch because that's what's done in the form?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do believe that Taiji people think punch and kick are both low level MA skill.

Many years ago in Taiwan, a guy wanted to compete in San Da tournament. He tied a coconut on ropes between 2 trees. Every day, he just punched on that bouncing back and force coconut between trees. A years later, he competed the San Da tournament and won the first place. Nobody could escape his "chain punch" head hunting. This further prove that you can develop true combat skill without training any particular MA system.

This video prove that "chain punch" is not unique in the WC system.



"Chain punch" doesn't work against "rhino guard".

The defender's footwork was horrible. He only knew how to move forward and backwards. I'm not saying that the attacker wasn't good. I'm just saying that the defender made his situation worse. I don't think the punches would have last that long against a person who knows how to step off center. At the most It would have been a burst of successful hits before having to reposition. People who train against charges will quickly step off center. My guess is the defender didn't train that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang147 177]

Tai chi Practitioner punches a guy in the face and sees an opportunity to punch him again. Does the practitioner punch the guy in the face again or does he limit himself to one punch because that's what's done in the form?

If you have trained the following drills such as:

- 1 step 3 punches.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 1 punch.
- 2 steps 1 punch.
- 3 steps 1 punch.

Your MA skill will not be restricted only by your form training experience. This is the main reason that "Form is for teaching/learning only. Form is not for training. One should train drills instead".

 

[isshinryuronin36 36]

The application gives birth to the form and principal. I do not think application can be developed or fully understand the other way around.

This is an interesting statement. It's similar to the question of "the chicken or the egg;" which one being the proximate element.

The application is the purpose, intent, goal of the technique. It is the destination. There is no reason to do or even learn the technique if it's not meant to accomplish anything. For a simple example: Landing an effective punch to the head to stun/injure the opponent being the purpose, goal, or application. This is step 1. At this point the application is not fully realized, existing only as intent. For it to be successful, the punch must have good form and utilize the principles of biophysical mechanics. This is step 2. This is the academic evolution - The destination, and then the journey of how to get there.

But in actual practice one can certainly learn the form and principles of a technique without knowing the application. This is the second path which happens all the time learning a new kata/form containing movements whose purpose is not as obvious as a punch. The creator of the form obviously took the first path; the teacher and student taking the second.

When teaching, I've noticed that when giving a newer student the application first, some tend to do the technique with preconceptions of how to achieve the application's intent, thus interfering with them learning the proper form and principles. "Keeping them in the dark" (to a certain extent) allows them to concentrate on the journey rather than the destination.

 

[Kung Fu Wang147 177]

When teaching, I've noticed that when giving a newer student the application first, some tend to do the technique with preconceptions of how to achieve the application's intent, thus interfering with them learning the proper form and principles. "Keeping them in the dark" (to a certain extent) allows them to concentrate on the journey rather than the destination.

How important is the foundation (proper form and principles)? Should we accumulate fighting experience first, or develop foundation first?

The ACSCA used to require the

- 1st degree BB to test CSC foundation.
- 2nd degree BB to test CSC tournament experience.

In the past 40 years, the ACSCA has reversed the order as:

- 1st degree BB to test CSC tournament experience.
- 2nd degree BB to test CSC foundation.

The reason is simple, the ACSCA encourages members to accumulate tournament experience while they are still young. They will have the rest of their lifetime to enhance their foundation.

 

[Same Trick91 42]

No. It's Yang. I trained Jow Ga separately. The school had 2 separates classes. This isn't my school but it's what you'll see in a lot of Jow Ga schools. One class for Jow Ga Kung Fu. A separate class for Tai Chi.

Here's different Jow Ga school

Sorry I have no YouTube, do they show Taiji kicking ?

 

[Same Trick91 42]

If you only train kicks in a form, how can you learn kicks that don't exist in your form? For example, Taiji has font toes kick, front heel kick, and outside crescent kick. How about roundhouse kick, side kick, inside crescent kick, back kick, hook kick, ...

If you learn kicks from the solo drill training, it doesn't matter whether your Taiji form may contain inside crescent kick, roundhouse kick, ... or not.

I do believe basic kicks should be considered as the foundation of all MA systems.

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[Same Trick91 42]

A while back I posed an interesting question. If Wing Chun's straight blast is such an important and effective technique in martial arts, why isn't it in Tai Chi?

Nobody could answer back then but I suspect Trip might have an interesting answer today.

But if this problem (with tai chi) is really to be fixed it will take a large amount of money. It won't be fixed by sharing secrets on forums.

Who is Trip ?

 

[Same Trick91 42]

Of course if taijiquan application was techniques(block,kick, punch) oriented it wouldn’t be called taijiquan, it’s of course called taijiquan because there is something specific to it, something of greater fundamental importance beyond block, kick, punch

 

[Wing Woo Gar81 5]

I don't. Your point is?

You seem to equate your training with what everyone else's training should produce, yet you never demonstrate the other methods of training that you criticize.

If you haven't done that, how can you require others to reproduce what you do?

I do think basic skills are foundational to martial arts. That doesn't mean every method has to contain the same set of skills, or train them in the same way.

In the video “Why do we practice Ma Bu Chong Chui (MBCC)”, they practice slow postures.
They aren't practicing any of the kicks you mentioned.
Do you feel their practice is lacking because of that?

We have this in our beginning warmup set.