The Destroyer Style

I was a lot like you, Cody — 20 years ago.

What I didn't mention in my first post was that I effectively used several of the "moves" that I had been shown. In high school, I subdued an attacker with a guillotine choke. In a bar's gravel parking lot, I "hip tossed" someone while being attacked by five guys. Later that same night, I fought off three guys (until I stopped to make sure one was OK) with a set of home-made escrima sticks.

I won't go into the dozens of physical confrontations in which I put to use that basic karate punch my dad showed me. I was what my grandmother calls "a scrappy kid."

So for me, the belts and rank thing WAS a pride thing: it was a matter of leaving my pride at the door, of humbling myself, to strap on a white belt and bow to kids wearing black belts (who I probably could have beaten in a fight) in order to LEARN.

By the time I got to green or blue belt a couple of years later, I realized that "knowing a few moves" is a LONG way from "knowing karate" (or judo, or taekwondo — insert ANY martial art name).

It was simply being introduced to a technique FROM karate, or judo, or taekwondo and, through a "scrappy nature" being able to put it to good use.

Then, by the time I was a black belt — another two years after blue or green —*I realized how little I had REALLY known as a green belt about the ART of taekwondo. At green belt, I had some decent familiarity with a few of the techniques, some solid training — but at that point, I was still forging the TOOLS that are needed to REALLY learn the ART of taekwondo.

And now, about 15 years of studying the art of martial arts as a black belt, I realize how much I have learned about "fighting" since I've been training at the black belt level.

And even now I realize I still have a LOT to learn. Martial art training is a wonderful journey.

So I am pretty sure I understand where you are coming from. Here's the thing:

By focusing on teaching others, you are missing out on a WORLD of stuff to LEARN.

I hate to break out a martial art cliche, but it is clearly applicable here:

EMPTY that cup! And then find someone to help you fill it.

There are plenty of things that are learned by remaining a student — long LONG after you THINK you have begun to learn.

Wishing you all the best,
 
Wonderful post zDom. I myself at times get overwhelmed at the wealth of material in any art, I've held a black belt since 16 and I'm 28 now and I can honestly say I'm still a student, I'm very self conscious about teaching anyone anything and realize that I don't have to go make something up that's more effective. It's all there, you may not understand it, but it's there.

It's just like how at a certain point you realize, I really don't have to block, but that takes years of learning, gaining speed and fight psychology.
 
Wonderful post zDom. I myself at times get overwhelmed at the wealth of material in any art, I've held a black belt since 16 and I'm 28 now and I can honestly say I'm still a student, I'm very self conscious about teaching anyone anything and realize that I don't have to go make something up that's more effective. It's all there, you may not understand it, but it's there.

It's just like how at a certain point you realize, I really don't have to block, but that takes years of learning, gaining speed and fight psychology.

You can't dodge everything though, for that matter you can't block everything either. I do know what you mean though. If you don't have to hit the guy and can just move out of the way, do it. I'm just saying like you said it takes along time to get to that point. Someone without experience needs every plus they can get. Also I would say that a life and death situation does change from person to person. A knife might not seem like a big deal to someone trained, but someone who isn't is in trouble. Even a master can make a mistake and get cut. You also have to take in account of how skilled is the guy you are fighting. There is no level where you don't have to block. Just a level difference between you and the person you fight.
 
I wasn't talking about just dodging or blocking. There's a lot to be learned for you yet. There are parrys, there are simultaneous parry/strikes, cants, it goes on. Blocking or dodging are just the tip of the iceberg.

You seem to be refuting a lot of things I did not even say. Self defense situations differing? Knife attacks? You seem to be responding to a lot of stuff I did not say.
 
I wasn't talking about just dodging or blocking. There's a lot to be learned for you yet. There are parrys, there are simultaneous parry/strikes, cants, it goes on. Blocking or dodging are just the tip of the iceberg.

You seem to be refuting a lot of things I did not even say. Self defense situations differing? Knife attacks? You seem to be responding to a lot of stuff I did not say.



He's probably answering many different points in one post even though he's quoted yours to answer first. it's an easy thing to do. Destroyer Style should be given credit for sticking in here though so it's worth a decent discussion to see if we can all widen our knowledge, we've had some good posts so far.
 
Destroyer Style: Could you list some of the techniques/drills that your style performs in the striking and grappling ranges? Do you train weapons? If so, what weapons?
 
Also I would say that a life and death situation does change from person to person. A knife might not seem like a big deal to someone trained, but someone who isn't is in trouble. Even a master can make a mistake and get cut.

Make a mistake and get cut? Knife fighting might be a lot more dangerous than you think, even for a well-trained person.
 
I'm sorry I was trying to answer a couple at once. There are alot of posts. I just felt like yours was a good point to consider. I think There was a question about do I train with weapons, or do I teach weapons? I have in the past, but my thoughts were, when will I ever have a sword in my hand at a public place. It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place. Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal. I do show people who ask for some help grappling. I don't like (alot of grappling) not all , because it pulls you off into a one on one fight. If you have multiple attackers you need to keep moving. If you keep moving its harder for them to get behind you and you might actually get away from them. I think it was also asked how would I show basic techniques and progress someone in them? Sorry if I'm off on the questions some. Usually if someone asks me to help them train, it depends on their mobility. If they cannot stand. I will sit in a chair across from them and we will go threw drills. There is not alot of range to dodge in a chair, so I have them practice movements with their gaurd up. Its actualy pretty easy to flip a chair over when you are franticly moving from side to side. After I get them use to relaxing while blocking and counter attacking with things like boxing movements. I teach them how to set up for an elbow, because from a sitting down position its sometimes difficult to use an elbow. Then I will show them how to use arm locks and other grappling techniques to bring them closer. From there I teach them techniques for eye gouges, groin hits, ect. Thats usually the process for someone who can't stand up.
If they have a complete range of motion I will add in kicks, and knees. I think it was Chris who asked if I was reallt published because of my awful writing skills. Yes I am, but I use their spell check system and the editor fixes the sentence structure. I don't so don't put alot of time into finding out how to spell words correctly on here because it would take a while. Also the comments for the videos are true, but keep in mind we have no camera man, so I can't really do to much moving around or we will move out of range or not the camera over. I think you also pointed out that technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do. The clip that you thought I attacked his ears, was actually just as it looks. I push his head back to make him off balance, then kick him over. It doesn't take alot of skill and not alot of physical force. I think you talked about the hip toss as having a lack of concern for my friend. The reason we are laughing in the video is because he said, ( Watch I will completely miss those cushions and when I do I am going to laugh). You see as I posted on the video we had to shoot them a couple times to get the right angle. I didn't mean to throw him in the floor, but on the cushions. I laughed because I though about what he said, not because I thought he was hurt. Also I would like to point out that, I was only hitting him with about 25% if that in the other videos. The kick you spoke of where I was off balance, if I had followed threw I may have hurt him. I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, your comments are some if not the longest on here. I wasn't trying to be rude just wanted to try and answer them all at once and just now had time to sit down and do it. If I have left anyone out who wrote me I appologize, I will try to get to you I usually work threw the day though. Thank you guys for your help Cody
 
Hmm... I practise MA for me. Not for someone else. If someone else wants to be able defend himself or herself, then he or she will have to spend a serious amount of time in the dojo / boxing hall / whatever, just like I do.

The only persons whose self defense potential I will actively look after (and try to teach) are my daughters, because I care about them and because I am responsible for their upbringing. I am going to do my best to make sure they are able to take care of themselves. Everyone else is not my responsibility.


I took a while to think about this. Its actually a double edge sword. If I try to help someone I don't even know that is being attacked I may die.
However, to help you see threw my eyes a little. Imagine the person being attacked was one of your daughters and I died trying to save her. From what you have said I you were me, you would walk on by. Don't worry though I wouldn't leave anyone that couldn't defend themselves to die. I hope this is not what you meant, but its kinda the impression I got. As for no one else being my responsibility. If I see anyone that I can help that wants it, they are my responsibility. No matter if I walk away from it or not.
 
1.Typed it quickly

2. Up to you

3. Only in my mind, or when it is to someone I am trying to impress

1. So the enter key takes forever to push?
2. I know, and I didn't read it.
3. I would hope you are not trying to impress anyone here. But communicating effectively involves things like grammar, sentence structure, paragraphs, spelling, etc. The things you say you do in your mind but don't bother to do while typing it out in a coherent manner, effectively renders your thoughts simply ineffective communication and moot ... so why bother posting if you are not going to do so effectively?
 
(For Omar to be able to read it properly, with a few additions...)

I'm sorry I was trying to answer a couple at once. There are alot of posts. I just felt like yours was a good point to consider.

This I believe was in reference to Omar's earlier responce, and whether it was really about what he had posted... I think. No reference here, so hard to be sure...

And answering multiple posts and questions is great, but please reference them. This is one way of doing it, but I think I may copyright it, so you may need to find your own...

I think There was a question about do I train with weapons, or do I teach weapons? I have in the past, but my thoughts were, when will I ever have a sword in my hand at a public place.

Now this may sound a little out of place, but when did you train with weapons such as swords? Not one of the arts you have claimed (and I think we have established that you have presented a rather embelished list, saying you have trained BJJ and Muay Thai when you have trained MMA for a short while) involves weapon training, especially older weapons such as a sword. So have you actually trained (been taught by a qualified instructor), or just played around with them yourself?

It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place.

Hmm, weird is one word for it. Borderline illegal and fantasy-based may be another. You think about how to fight "with" chairs and tables, as you can find themin a public place? One question, do you love watching the WWE as well (not a disparagement, I'm a big fan myself, Triple H is my favourite)? It ain't the same, I'm afraid.

Remember that anytime a weapon is brought into a situation (including you starting to hit people with chairs), you are escalating the situation and therefore the legal ramifications of such. And from your posts here, it appears that you don't quite understand the realities of what you are talking about, and the real physical and legal trouble you are opening people up to.

Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal.

Well, I would say that you are jumping ahead. The first thing to do is to train it so the skills are a part of your natural actions, and only after you truly understand them can you start to get into the adaptation/variation aspect to "personalise" the system. Too many people jump ahead to the "I do it my way!" approach without spending the appropriate timedeveloping their skill. This leaves their resultant techniques sadly lacking, and with little chance of improvement.

Within Japanese arts, there are three stages of learning, known as Shu, Ha, Ri. Shu is that first stage, where you do as shown, and do not vary it at all. This instills the strategies and movements of the art, and gives you the building blocks to allow you to later start to adapt. Ha gives you a little more freedom, allowing you to adapt the individual technique itself, but the initial technique should still be recognisable. By the time you reach Ri, the principles are completely internalised, the techniques are thrown away, and an art is truly personal.

With your described history I would suggest that you never got further than Shu, and not very far into that before leaving and thinking you understood it all. In other words, you have very prematurely put yourself past the Shu stage, into the Ha stage. However, I don't think you have placed yourself at the Ri stage, mainly because I don't think you are aware of it...

I do show people who ask for some help grappling. I don't like (alot of grappling) not all , because it pulls you off into a one on one fight. If you have multiple attackers you need to keep moving. If you keep moving its harder for them to get behind you and you might actually get away from them.

Okay, this is where those references come in handy...

You show people who ask for help? Okay, but that doesn't make you a teacher, that makes you someone who was asked by someone else who probably knows even less than you do.

Liking or not liking grappling is fine, and against groups I agree, it is not the best choice. But what you should be looking to is group management, rather than just keep moving. It's a good initial startegy, but needs development. But I won't get too much into that here, this is looking like it's going to be a long enough post as it is.

I think it was also asked how would I show basic techniques and progress someone in them? Sorry if I'm off on the questions some. Usually if someone asks me to help them train, it depends on their mobility. If they cannot stand. I will sit in a chair across from them and we will go threw drills.

My question here is simple. Who is asking you to help them train? Is it just friends, past training partners, are you advertising somewhere?

There is not alot of range to dodge in a chair, so I have them practice movements with their gaurd up. Its actualy pretty easy to flip a chair over when you are franticly moving from side to side. After I get them use to relaxing while blocking and counter attacking with things like boxing movements. I teach them how to set up for an elbow, because from a sitting down position its sometimes difficult to use an elbow.

Hmm, not sure I agree with this approach. Most people in wheelchairs are more likely to be grabbed, rather than hit, so I would go more through resistant grappling and anti-grappling tactics. And an elbow? What on Earth for? You even admit it's not easy (so it's not going to be a high return tool) to apply, the distancing is not suited as the person in a wheelchair would be lower (further away from the main viable targets) and it is just not a good option to take them through.

Then I will show them how to use arm locks and other grappling techniques to bring them closer. From there I teach them techniques for eye gouges, groin hits, ect. Thats usually the process for someone who can't stand up.

Ah, grappling. Good, it is in there. How about this though, why is the person in a chair? Is it paraplegia, or are you including things such as cerebral palsy which will limit the other motor functions as well? Can you see why we are saying that to develop an art for the handicapped is like saying you will develop a system for mammals without taking into account the many various conditions you will need to take into consideration?

If they have a complete range of motion I will add in kicks, and knees.

Okay, this is the editor in me... Why have you started a new paragraph (albeit without separation) within the same though structure for one sentence, then continued with a completely separate one immediately following?

I think it was Chris who asked if I was reallt published because of my awful writing skills. Yes I am, but I use their spell check system and the editor fixes the sentence structure.

No, I was more talking about the way you would start new sentences. Using a period stop. Instead of a comma. Even when it was the same sentence. That just shows. A complete lack of understanding of grammer. Your spelling is another issue. But you, my friend, are no writer.

I don't so don't put alot of time into finding out how to spell words correctly on here because it would take a while.

I don't even know what to say about this... But at least you are consistent! Learning a martial art properly would take time, so you don't bother, instead deciding you know it all and can correct the mistakes and short sightedness of those who have sadly wasted years studying. And it seems the same approach is taken for spelling. Takes too long, can't be bothered, I'm an author you know!

You have submitted articles to a self-publish site, that does not make you an author. You have had very little training, but have thought a lot about fighting with chairs and tables, while thinking about eye gouges and kill-or-be-killed fights around every corner. That, I'm afraid, does not make you a martial artist or instructor.

Also the comments for the videos are true, but keep in mind we have no camera man, so I can't really do to much moving around or we will move out of range or not the camera over.

So why make them that way? If it isn't showing what you really do, but you keep showing them as examples of your approach, why not just wait until you can do it properly? Oh, and my comments were more that your techniques were flawed, not just the lack of evasion (although that was a part of it).

I think you also pointed out that technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do.

Then what was the point? You showed that you could over-reach for a technique that was overkill, and ineffective to boot? What exactly does that show?

The clip that you thought I attacked his ears, was actually just as it looks. I push his head back to make him off balance, then kick him over.

Oh boy. The big issue here is that your "attacker" was already moving back, and frankly pushing his head back if he is really coming forward is just not going to work. Again, a very flawed technique.

It doesn't take alot of skill and not alot of physical force. I think you talked about the hip toss as having a lack of concern for my friend. The reason we are laughing in the video is because he said, ( Watch I will completely miss those cushions and when I do I am going to laugh).

Yeah, but you dropped him through badly positioned cushions (which are very poor safety considerations, really), and when he landed on his side, he was coughing and spluttering, which could indicate injured ribs, you walked off. I don't care what you or he said before the filming, that is not the way to look after your training partner.

You see as I posted on the video we had to shoot them a couple times to get the right angle. I didn't mean to throw him in the floor, but on the cushions. I laughed because I though about what he said, not because I thought he was hurt.

See above.

Also I would like to point out that, I was only hitting him with about 25% if that in the other videos. The kick you spoke of where I was off balance, if I had followed threw I may have hurt him.

"Through", dude, not "threw". Oh, and with a throw like that, the way you hold back is to hold him up as he falls, dropping him and claiming that you were only going 25%, but ignoring the impact of the floor, is not understanding throwing or safety, so don't do it until you understand that. This is part of the maturity we are talking about, in teaching, knowledge, and simply growing up. You're young, recognise that you still have a way to go.

Again, if you can't do the videos properly, why are you doing them?

I'm sorry I didn't answer you sooner, your comments are some if not the longest on here. I wasn't trying to be rude just wanted to try and answer them all at once and just now had time to sit down and do it. If I have left anyone out who wrote me I appologize, I will try to get to you I usually work threw the day though. Thank you guys for your help Cody

Yeah, I do go on every now and then... but I like to be thorough. There is no need to apologise if you take on board what we are saying.
 
First my apologies, I did not want to go through all of this to get the quotes so I simply used Chris’ since I am responding to him and The Destroyer Style.

Basically the stuff in the quotes in blue is from Chris and the stuff in black in the quotes is The Destroyer Style

It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place.

Hmm, weird is one word for it. Borderline illegal and fantasy-based may be another. You think about how to fight "with" chairs and tables, as you can find themin a public place? One question, do you love watching the WWE as well (not a disparagement, I'm a big fan myself, Triple H is my favourite)? It ain't the same, I'm afraid.

Remember that anytime a weapon is brought into a situation (including you starting to hit people with chairs), you are escalating the situation and therefore the legal ramifications of such. And from your posts here, it appears that you don't quite understand the realities of what you are talking about, and the real physical and legal trouble you are opening people up to.

Just a note here, and when I found this out it came as a surprise to me as well, but there are Southern Chinese Martial Arts styles that trained to use a bench as a weapon since that was what would be readily available to them in a house, restaurant, bar, tea house of the time

Not saying that a person who knows how to use a weapon couldn't pick up something and fight. I like to think that improvisation is what makes a style or technique personal.

Well, I would say that you are jumping ahead. The first thing to do is to train it so the skills are a part of your natural actions, and only after you truly understand them can you start to get into the adaptation/variation aspect to "personalise" the system. Too many people jump ahead to the "I do it my way!" approach without spending the appropriate timedeveloping their skill. This leaves their resultant techniques sadly lacking, and with little chance of improvement.

Within Japanese arts, there are three stages of learning, known as Shu, Ha, Ri. Shu is that first stage, where you do as shown, and do not vary it at all. This instills the strategies and movements of the art, and gives you the building blocks to allow you to later start to adapt. Ha gives you a little more freedom, allowing you to adapt the individual technique itself, but the initial technique should still be recognisable. By the time you reach Ri, the principles are completely internalised, the techniques are thrown away, and an art is truly personal.

With your described history I would suggest that you never got further than Shu, and not very far into that before leaving and thinking you understood it all. In other words, you have very prematurely put yourself past the Shu stage, into the Ha stage. However, I don't think you have placed yourself at the Ri stage, mainly because I don't think you are aware of it...

As to training weapons, I agree with what Chris is saying here since the same pretty much goes for Chinese weapons as well, we’re just not as formal about it as the Japanese stylists (You guys are WAAAAY to serious :D). But even in CMA styles such as Xingyiquan levels are important and you need to fully understand one before you go on to the next if you ever hope to actually understand it and use it properly. And this stuff takes time…. A lot of time and if ones goal is to help others than one would, I believe, take that time to do it right

But alternative weapons are a good thing to think about later. Keys can be a weapon and tightly rolled up magazine can be a weapon and for that matter so can a hot cup of coffee.


I think you also pointed out that technique with the hammer fist was weak, I do agree. It was not meant to make contact, I just wanted to show what you could do.

Then what was the point? You showed that you could over-reach for a technique that was overkill, and ineffective to boot? What exactly does that show?

Another note based on CMA. A hammer fist if you are coming up against a properly trained Shaolinquan of Changquan person is devastating and you might want to take a defense against it a bit more seriously if you are going to demonstrate it. Also note if they are attacking with a hammer fist it is generally followed by many more hammer fists much the same as a 3 section staff with the body as the stationary staff and the arms as the ones coming at your head.


I give The Destroyer Style props for hanging in here, taking the hits and responding and also realizing that he needs more training. But it would help to use proper punctuations and spelling in a medium where proper punctuation and spelling are what is being used to get ones point across. This is something I do not always get right myself, particularly if I am in a hurry. That’s why, if time allows, I tend to write EVERYTHING in MS Word first to check myself before posting
 
The point of the videos is to show things that people could do, not have to do. No I do not watch wrestling I never could get past the bad acting. I am not saying that I have made it to any kind of level, or that I am an instructor. I show people defences that ask me for help. Keep in mind that an elbow can be used in many different ways. I do agree that somone could grab a person in a wheel chair, but unless they did it from behind they could just hit them in the groin.
I will try to take more time to answer these question btw so you its easier to read. You can say I'm not an author or anything else, I don't really care. I will point out that if I am surrounded I am not going to worry about going to jail, so I would pick something up. I do tell people that its considered a weapon and they may get into trouble for it. However if they would rather get beat to death or die is up to them.
I don't really recomend killing anyone if you don't have to. I just recommend protecting yourself to the best of your abilities. If you are surrounded then you have to stop one person before you can move to the next. I base my strategies in life or death situations because I would rather be prepared for it. I hope you don't I'm saying if someone spits on you or something to go stomp him in the throat. Laugh it off and walk away as long as he doesn't attack you.
 
It may sound weird, but I spend hours working on ways to fight with chairs, tables, ect. Things that may be found in an actual public place
Reminds me of Jackie Chan movies, he had the cool moves with just about anything laying around. If you could post some of your chair/bench/table work, it would be interesting to see, also gives us a chance to analyze your techniques. After people comment on the techniques though, gotta be prepared for some constructive criticism, because people with more experience and more training will likely point out flaws in the techniques, the pointing out might seem harsh, but it's in face helpful for you because you can find ways to improve yourself.
 
Well arguments aside, I think your remit is laudable in trying to reconcile techniques from disparate arts that are relevant to people with a disability. So I say a genuine well done for what you are attempting!! Also I am glad you are facing your critics here without any aggression and with a degree of openness - and most people here are responding to your openness with constructive criticism, so long as you keep your art's claims to a modest level :) No new art can claim anything until it is tested and proven, yet that does not preclude it from EVENTUALLY upholding the claims it initially wants to make :) Patience and restraint I think :)

I would just like to suggest a few things maybe if that is ok? And you do not have to answer me, I have no argument to make only I want you maybe to have some things clear in your own head :) OK so if I were attending a new style specifically designed for say women, I might reasonably expect the oringinator of the style to be a woman also, no? To understand what I as a woman need from an MA I mean.. You know you have been asked for credentials for the various arts you have proficiency in.. To me, that would show itself one way or the other in your exposition of your new art.. I would rather know, without wanting to be overfamiliar.. if you yourself suffer or have suffered any incapacity that might qualify and temper your knowledge and your application and tuition of this new style? No, of course that is not a requisite and but I think it is relevant, no?

Also, I have some experience of mentoring people with disabilities and though they are as likely to want to take up a martial art as anyone, there are a great deal of concomitant difficulties for them that would translate into difficulties for you.. I just wonder do you have experience of teaching the people you are pitching your art at? And finally that would lead me to ask would you discriminate against the type of disability you can cope with? The nature of disability is a very widely encompassing term.. Not all fit the image you have painted of a wheelchair user with sound upper body mobility..

Again I seek no argument only I wish you good luck because I have not encountered anything so specific in this way, and but I think what you propose has merit if you get everything straight and have a willingness and commitment to follow through. So yes, good luck :)

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna
 
Reminds me of Jackie Chan movies, he had the cool moves with just about anything laying around. If you could post some of your chair/bench/table work, it would be interesting to see, also gives us a chance to analyze your techniques. After people comment on the techniques though, gotta be prepared for some constructive criticism, because people with more experience and more training will likely point out flaws in the techniques, the pointing out might seem harsh, but it's in face helpful for you because you can find ways to improve yourself.

Ok, I think that would be a great idea. It might help me find a way to use more things to fight with as well. I will have to get some help together to film something like that. I will work on something of that nature to share.
 
Back
Top