The Dangers of Evolution

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hmm, not sure I agree with your very last there, Dan but I am of the opinion that anything infrastructural (which includes social infrastructure like schools as well civil infrastructure like roads to me) should be centrally funded. So, even if you don't use one then your taxes should still be used to pay for the infrastructure for the good of everyone. After all, there are roads in this country that I will never use but it would be silly to try to claim back tax for that .

Yes, and I consider that a valid argument to the contrary. US law does not force me to drive or make use of the roads, and I benefit directly from them, as I do receive mail, UPS and FedEx.

On the other hand, I am required by US law to school my children. If I am obeying this law though another service provider, I do not wish to be charged for the privilege of using what I may consider an inferior product or a product that forces me to have my kids taught in a way that runs counter to my beliefs.

Having said that, I believe that religious establishments and organizations should be required to conform to the same standards as other non profits or be taxed, so it would all balance out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cannot help but notice that the OP has not responded once on this five page thread. However, his posting has been a springboard for some interesting and fairly meaningful discussion, so I do thank him.

 

[Sukerkin]

I was thinking much the same thing, my friend :nods:. It was wonderful to see something constructive arise from it.

 

[DennisBreene]

Personally, I think that the people who drive the creationism vs. evolution debate (the only ones who drive it are on the creationism side) are egotistical. They distract their flock from more important matters with an issue that is really a non issue.

Also, It is egotistical to think that a publicly funded school system is going to teach a belief that is not only scientifically unsound (saying that the Earth is less than ten thousand years old is scientifically unsound), but grounded in religion. And there is no law requiring you to utilize the public schools to educate your children. There are plenty of private religious schools and plenty of people who home school.

The only concession that should be given is monetary: if you do not use the public schools, I do not believe that you should be taxed to fund them.

I am aware of some municipalities that assist in transportation to the local private schools. It was argued successfully that this was fair use of the tax contribution of parents who placed their students in private schools.

 

[grumpywolfman]

Macro-evolution is an important concept to make the Theory of Evolution work, because Darwinists believe that it is the mechanism for their idea that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor (a rock LOL). Since micro-evolution is small-scale (“micro&#8221 biological change, and macro-evolution is large-scale (“macro&#8221 biological change, many Darwinists argue that macro-evolution is simply the accumulation of micro-evolutionary changes over time. Ostensibly, this is a reasonable extrapolation of micro-evolution. Darwinists, therefore, often cite evidence for micro-evolution as evidence for macro-evolution. However, because macro-evolution requires new additional genetic information, no amount of rearrangement, corruption or loss of existing genetic information will produce macro-evolution. In other words, no amount of micro-evolution will produce macro-evolution. Darwinists draw a false correlation between the two.

 

[crushing]

Macro-evolution is an important concept to make the Theory of Evolution work, because Darwinists believe that it is the mechanism for their idea that all life evolved from a common primordial ancestor (a rock LOL). Since micro-evolution is small-scale (“micro&#8221 biological change, and macro-evolution is large-scale (“macro&#8221 biological change, many Darwinists argue that macro-evolution is simply the accumulation of micro-evolutionary changes over time. Ostensibly, this is a reasonable extrapolation of micro-evolution. Darwinists, therefore, often cite evidence for micro-evolution as evidence for macro-evolution. However, because macro-evolution requires new additional genetic information, no amount of rearrangement, corruption or loss of existing genetic information will produce macro-evolution. In other words, no amount of micro-evolution will produce macro-evolution. Darwinists draw a false correlation between the two.

I was trying to figure out where you were coming from with this and I think I found the answer here: http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionexplained/a/micro_macro.htm

When creationists use the terms, however, it is for ontological reasons — this means that they are trying to describe two fundamentally different processes. The essence of what constitutes microevolution is, for creationists, different from the essence of what constitutes macroevolution. Creationists act as if there is some magic line between microevolution and macroevolution, but no such line exists as far as science is concerned. Macroevolution is merely the result of a lot of microevolution over a long period of time.

 

[grumpywolfman]

I was trying to figure out where you were coming from with this and I think I found the answer here: http://atheism.about.com/od/evolutionexplained/a/micro_macro.htm

Coming from the scientific truth that macro-evolution cannot be connected to micro-evolution; it's just the closet thing that could be used to make the deception sound even possible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am aware of some municipalities that assist in transportation to the local private schools. It was argued successfully that this was fair use of the tax contribution of parents who placed their students in private schools.

Yes, however, I do not believe that public school buses should be furnished to private schools unless it is done on a rental basis.

My only point was that if there is that great of a divide between people of certain religious denominations and everyone else regarding what it taught in publicly funded schools, the only reasonable request would be to opt out of funding, I suppose on religious grounds. I'm not really a big fan of vouchers; I would rather spare a non user the tax than take the money and give it back to them (why handle it twice?).

My opinion regarding people who do not have kids in public schools paying a school tax is not a particularly near and dear belief, but it also isn't a random thought. It is part of other opinions that I hold regarding use of tax dollars and the extent to which citizens should be taxed, but that is outside of the scope of this thread.

 

[crushing]

Coming from the scientific truth that macro-evolution cannot be connected to micro-evolution; it's just the closet thing that could be used to make the deception sound even possible.

How do you come to the conclusion that they cannot be connected?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

However, because macro-evolution requires new additional genetic information, no amount of rearrangement, corruption or loss of existing genetic information will produce macro-evolution. In other words, no amount of micro-evolution will produce macro-evolution. Darwinists draw a false correlation between the two.

That's not entirely true. Evolution, as we understand it, is a culmination of four significant processes: mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, and migration. Mutation, by defintion, "new additional genetic information." IF a mutation is seen as beneficial to the fitness of the species, there will be natural selection for this mutation, and given enough influence, genetic drift towards this mutation.

 

[harlan]

Since I am unfamiliar with the correct (if any) usage of 'macro' and 'micro' evolution I will have to do some reading. However, I am a proponent of 'punctuated equilibrium'.

On a side note, are there REALLY any 'Darwinists' out there (anymore)?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since I am unfamiliar with the correct (if any) usage of 'macro' and 'micro' evolution I will have to do some reading. However, I am a proponent of 'punctuated equilibrium'.

The short of it is that micro is changes within a species and macro is the transition from one species to another.

On a personal note, I believe that without a creator, without a divine agency, nothing comes from nothing and life, the planets, the stars, the galaxy, and the universe, would not be possible.

If you (the general you) believe differently, I respect that. I do not consider this topic to have any bearing on what type of person you are. I'm more concerned with how people treat one another than what creation account they subscribe to.

It isn't a subject that generally comes up in my personal life, and on the rare occasion that it does, the conversations are friendly and respectful.

I also do not believe that it negatively impacts your standing with God. God wants you to love your neighbor, to be kind to your family, and to have abundant life. It is more important to have a loving heart than a brainy head, though I am very pleased that my girlfriend has both.

On a side note, are there REALLY any 'Darwinists' out there (anymore)?

Good question. If so, they don't door knock.

 

[Gnarlie]

I read this thread from start to finish earlier, and it was reminding me of something that I couldn't place for a while. I've got it now. It's part of the British sitcom Red Dwarf.

The character Lister has awoken after 3 million years in suspended animation to find that a cat (Frankenstein) he smuggled onto the spaceship (Red Dwarf) was pregnant, and has evolved into an entire race of cat-men. He's asked the ship's computer, Holly, to translate the cat-people's holy book, which is written in smells, to determine the nature of their God, Cloister:

HOLLY: Morning, Dave. I've finished your translation.
LISTER: Who's Cloister? Is it me?
HOLLY: Yes, Dave. The Cats have made you their God.
LISTER: Hey! Working class kid makes good!
HOLLY: Your plan to buy a farm on Fiji and open up a hot dog and doughnut diner has become their image of heaven.
LISTER: What?
HOLLY displays a picture from the Holy Book, showing the noble, biblical,sort-of-Lister standing on a mountaintop, reading a scroll to the blackcat.
HOLLY reads from the book in voice-over.
HOLLY: "And Cloister spake, `Lo, I shall lead you to Fyushal, and there we shall open a temple of food, wherein shall be sausages and doughnuts and all manner of bountiful things.
The picture changes to one showing the pseudo-Lister standing in front ofa sausage and doughnut cart on a beach, with palm trees.
HOLLY: "`Yea, even individual sachets of mustard. And those who serve shall have hats of great majesty, yea, though they be made of coloured cardboard and have humorous arrows through the top.'"
LISTER: Does it say what happened to the rest of the Cats?
HOLLY: Holy wars. There were thousands of years of fighting, Dave, between the two factions.
LISTER: What two factions?
HOLLY: Well, the ones who believed the hats should be red, and the ones who believed the hats should be blue.
Another picture, showing the holy wars. It looks like a scene from theBayeaux Tapestry.
LISTER: Do you mean they had a war over whether the doughnut diner hats were red or blue?
HOLLY: Yeah. Most of them were killed fighting about that. It's daft really, innit?
LISTER: You're not kidding. They were supposed to be green.
11 Int. Corridor.
LISTER is walking along.
LISTER: Go on, Hol.
HOLLY: Well, finally they called a truce, and built two arks and left Red Dwarf in search of Fyushal.
LISTER: But there's no such place as Fyushal. It's Fiji. I mean, how are they supposed to find it?
HOLLY: "And Cloister gave to Frankenstein the sacred writing, saying, `Those who have wisdom will know its meaning.' And it was written thus: `Seven socks, one shirt--'"
LISTER: That's my laundry list! I lined the cat's basket with me laundry list!
HOLLY: The Blue Hats thought it was a star chart leading to the promised land.
LISTER: Well it wasn't, it was my dirty washing.
12 Int. Sleeping quarters.
LISTER arrives in his quarters.
LISTER: What happened next, Hol?
HOLLY: "And the ark that left first followed the sacred signs, and lo, they flew straight into an asteroid.
Another picture. This one shows red Dwarf in space, with two arks (theylook like boats with rocket engines stuck on the back) leaving it indifferent directions.
HOLLY: "And the righteous in the second ark flew ever onward, knowing they were indeed righteous."
LISTER: This is terrible. Holy wars. Killing. They're just using religion as an excuse to be extremely crappy to each other.
TOASTER: So, what else is new?

We're arguing about whether the hats are red or blue.

 

[arnisador]

Coming from the scientific truth that macro-evolution cannot be connected to micro-evolution; it's just the closet thing that could be used to make the deception sound even possible.

Deception? So it is a conspiracy?

 

[K-man]

I'm not convinced about this whole creation thing. I mean God was obviously stumbling around in space in the dark and he hit on the idea of putting together a big ball of water. That's pretty good because normally it would be ice as there was no heat. Then God switched on the light so at least he could see what he had made. Before he got into real estate God was obviously a sparkie so he worked out how he could turn the light on and off. How cool was that? ... And that was all on the first day.

Next day, God gets up and turns on the light. He thinks for a while and decides that he can spend all day in the water so he makes heaven. That was a fair days work so he turns of the light to take a nap.

Then God had a real brainwave. If he put some dirt in the water and built it up enough he could walk around without getting his feet wet. The dirt was pretty boring so God thought he would pretty it up, so he set about making seeds. There were black ones and white ones and ones with a bit of yellow. He spread them around and like magic, they sprouted into grass and they had the same seeds growing off them. God thought that was cool and went back to make some more seeds. This time he made them a bit bigger. Some were red, some green and some had spots on. He sprinkled them around and, <poof>, he had fruit trees all with fruit on them and seeds inside. God thought that was enough for one day so he turned off the light to take a rest. After three days, he was on time and on budget.

God woke up the next day with a problem. He had great looking plants all around the ground but nothing in the heaven. Back to the workshop and then he emerges with all this sparkly stuff that he shoots up towards heaven and he has stars!
And these are so we can differentiate days and years and seasons, but he hadn't worked years or seasons out yet. He rigged a device so when he turned the light of on Earth, the light came on in heaven and vice versa.

Now God reckoned that things were pretty good but they would be better if the light for daytime was a bit brighter so he made the Sun. That certainly brightened things up a bit but he was still a bit concerned about the night. Just in case he had to get up during the night for the normal reasons and so he didn't need to light up the sun, he thought he would ate a night light so he made the moon. Then he made the stars. Hang about ... didn't he make some stars this morning? Oh well, he made some even brighter ones and sent them up to heaven as well. And it is still only the fourth day!

Next day arrives and God looks around wondering what he could do next. The place is a bit quiet so he thinks that if he made some little feathery things they could fly around in the air and some cold scaly things that could swim around in the sea. And God talked to these guys and said "Be fruitful and multiply". Not sure whether he meant them to eat the fruit and do the maths but they seem to know what he meant and they played around and had babies as they had been instructed. Not bad for day five.

Now it was time to make animals on the ground. He made beasts and cattle and things that creep and he liked what he saw and decided he would make another creature just like him. (He must have got it wrong a few times because we ended up with a whole lot of gorillas and chimpanzees.) Eventually he got the mix right and there standing in front of him in all his glory was Adam! Wow! Adam was a bit miffed. He liked God but he wanted someone a bit different for companionship so God created Eve. God told them to go away, make babies and look after the place.

That wasn't a bad effort. In just six days, starting with nothing we now have this fantastic place for Adam and Eve and their heirs and successors. And God rested.

If you want to check you will find this pretty much a paraphrase of Genesis, chapter 1.

If you really believe that this is what really happened .....

 

[Cyriacus]

I'm not convinced about this whole creation thing. I mean God was obviously stumbling around in space in the dark and he hit on the idea of putting together a big ball of water. That's pretty good because normally it would be ice as there was no heat. Then God switched on the light so at least he could see what he had made. Before he got into real estate God was obviously a sparkie so he worked out how he could turn the light on and off. How cool was that? ... And that was all on the first day.

Next day, God gets up and turns on the light. He thinks for a while and decides that he can spend all day in the water so he makes heaven. That was a fair days work so he turns of the light to take a nap.

Then God had a real brainwave. If he put some dirt in the water and built it up enough he could walk around without getting his feet wet. The dirt was pretty boring so God thought he would pretty it up, so he set about making seeds. There were black ones and white ones and ones with a bit of yellow. He spread them around and like magic, they sprouted into grass and they had the same seeds growing off them. God thought that was cool and went back to make some more seeds. This time he made them a bit bigger. Some were red, some green and some had spots on. He sprinkled them around and, <poof>, he had fruit trees all with fruit on them and seeds inside. God thought that was enough for one day so he turned off the light to take a rest. After three days, he was on time and on budget.

God woke up the next day with a problem. He had great looking plants all around the ground but nothing in the heaven. Back to the workshop and then he emerges with all this sparkly stuff that he shoots up towards heaven and he has stars!
And these are so we can differentiate days and years and seasons, but he hadn't worked years or seasons out yet. He rigged a device so when he turned the light of on Earth, the light came on in heaven and vice versa.

Now God reckoned that things were pretty good but they would be better if the light for daytime was a bit brighter so he made the Sun. That certainly brightened things up a bit but he was still a bit concerned about the night. Just in case he had to get up during the night for the normal reasons and so he didn't need to light up the sun, he thought he would ate a night light so he made the moon. Then he made the stars. Hang about ... didn't he make some stars this morning? Oh well, he made some even brighter ones and sent them up to heaven as well. And it is still only the fourth day!

Next day arrives and God looks around wondering what he could do next. The place is a bit quiet so he thinks that if he made some little feathery things they could fly around in the air and some cold scaly things that could swim around in the sea. And God talked to these guys and said "Be fruitful and multiply". Not sure whether he meant them to eat the fruit and do the maths but they seem to know what he meant and they played around and had babies as they had been instructed. Not bad for day five.

Now it was time to make animals on the ground. He made beasts and cattle and things that creep and he liked what he saw and decided he would make another creature just like him. (He must have got it wrong a few times because we ended up with a whole lot of gorillas and chimpanzees.) Eventually he got the mix right and there standing in front of him in all his glory was Adam! Wow! Adam was a bit miffed. He liked God but he wanted someone a bit different for companionship so God created Eve. God told them to go away, make babies and look after the place.

That wasn't a bad effort. In just six days, starting with nothing we now have this fantastic place for Adam and Eve and their heirs and successors. And God rested.

If you want to check you will find this pretty much a paraphrase of Genesis, chapter 1.

If you really believe that this is what really happened .....

You may have made me spit out my water.

 

[Carol]

I am aware of some municipalities that assist in transportation to the local private schools. It was argued successfully that this was fair use of the tax contribution of parents who placed their students in private schools.

Home schoolers also use public school resources such as tutorial/remedial work, after-school activities and sports. My sister home schooled her biological kids through grade 8, had she done so all the way through grade 12 she would have had access to even more resources.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Scientists just discovered the first paired anal fin fish.

http://news.discovery.com/human/evolution/fish-fossil-human-limbs-130409.htm

 

[K-man]

Scientists just discovered the first paired anal fin fish.

http://news.discovery.com/human/evolution/fish-fossil-human-limbs-130409.htm

They are probably the same species that evolved into humans who talk from the same part of the body!

 

[crushing]

They are probably the same species that evolved into humans who talk from the same part of the body!

They figure the fin became a mustache.