The Council for American Islamic Relations and Terrorism

[Mr. E]

Many people have probably heard of the Council for American Islamic Relations but have never thought much about it. I think that greater thought is in order. I hope this will inform and warn people to the possible threat this organization poses.

Before I go on, I know that many try to paint anyone who warns about Islamic terrorism as a bigot and/or a right wing fanatic with some agenda. So at the start I would like to pull out some quotes by people that are not the usual right- wing crowd.

*U.S. Senator Richard Durbin:* "[CAIR is] unusual in its extreme rhetoric and its associations
*********************************** with groups that are suspect"


*U.S. Senator Charles Schumer:* "we know [CAIR] has ties to terrorism"
************************************************ "intimate links with Hamas"

from this article.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID={463F0AC7-8950-4B6B-9DC3-F38B5DD068D8}

*U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer:* "To praise an organization because they haven't been indicted
******************************************* is like somebody saying, 'I'm not a crook'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16384987/site/newsweek/

"Of particular note are the American Muslims who reject CAIR's claim to speak on their behalf. The late Seifeldin Ashmawy, publisher of the New Jersey-based Voice of Peace, called CAIR the champion of "extremists whose views do not represent Islam."[8] Jamal Hasan of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance explains that CAIR's goal is to spread "Islamic hegemony the world over by hook or by crook."[9] Kamal Nawash, head of Free Muslims Against Terrorism, finds that CAIR and similar groups condemn terrorism on the surface while endorsing an ideology that helps foster extremism, adding that "almost all of their members are theocratic Muslims who reject secularism and want to establish Islamic states."[10] Tashbih Sayyed of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance calls CAIR "the most accomplished fifth column" in the United States.[11] And Stephen Schwartz of the Center on Islamic Pluralism writes that "CAIR should be considered a foreign-based subversive organization, comparable in the Islamist field to the Soviet-controlled Communist Party, USA."[12]"

http://www.meforum.org/article/916

I hope this helps show that the concern is valid.

If you have not noticed statements by CAIR, you probably will start noticing them after reading this. They are quite vocal in their defense of anything that casts any Muslim in a bad light. Their stated aim is to serve as a bridge between American Muslims and the rest of society. Their real purpose seems quite a bit more sinister.

The Chairman of CAIR, Omar M. Ahmad, told a crowd of California Muslims in July 1998, "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran . . . should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth."

It might surprise people to read what even Wikipedia says about them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAIR

"Headquartered in Washington, D.C., with 32 regional offices and chapters in the U.S. and Canada, CAIR was founded in 1994 by Nihad Awad, Omar Ahmad, and Rafeeq Jaber[2][3] of the Islamic Association of Palestine with funding from the Hamas group Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development.[4] The Holy Land Foundation was later closed as a money-laundering scheme for terrorist support. Hamas is still denominated as a "Designated Foreign Terrorist Organization" by the United States Department of State. [4]
Critics have accused the group of being associated with extremists[1], and in 2007 U.S. federal prosecutors named CAIR an "unindicted co-conspirator" in a plot to fund the designated terrorist organization Hamas[5]."

Please read the rest of the article as well. I think people need to understand this group to understand them when next they hear about them on the news. In addition to the links I have given so far, please take the time to read at least some of these as well.

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/394

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43849

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/32

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/CAIR031607

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/002621.php

http://www.adl.org/media_watch/newspapers/20070106-OrlandoSentinel.htm

http://www.americansagainsthate.org/cw/

http://www.freedomszone.com/archives/2006/08/cair_says_we_shouldnt_call_mus_1.php

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/11536725/

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c172.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/3838/islams-image-problem

http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.21599,filter.all/pub_detail.asp

Yes, it is a lot. There is more if you search.

One disturbing fact is that several people associated with CAIR have been indicated and convicted of helping terrorists. Some of you may recall that after the Oklahoma City bombing American militias were scoured in the belief that, if they did not actually help with the plans, that their message of hate and paranoia helped contribute. Despite that, CAIR still seems to have a large and influential presence. Their title alone seems to give them cover and anyone who denounces them, their actions or their message is labeled a hate -mongering bigot.

It is an established fact that there were and are front organizations working against other countries while pretending to be trying to bridge the gap between nations. CAIR is IMO a modern version of this.

If you read news items off of the internet and can search the news for key words, I urge you to find out just what CAIR is up to according to the news. I think what you will find will chill you.

 

[michaeledward]

One wonders why you would expend such time and energy investigating this oneorganization, unless you held a preset belief structure of intolerance toward the organization. And that is the definition of 'bigotted', isn't it? Being intolerant to a person or group based on their associations.

I imagine that if one performed a similiar search on any of the worlds organized religions, simillar nefarious groups, taking similarly nefarious actions could be found. Quite probably, they would also be found doing things that benefit their consituencies. For instance, you are aware that Hamas is a leading provider of schooling and healthcare for Palestinians?

Heck, I recently watched the movie 'Breach', (based on a true story) and in it, I learned that Agnus Dei Catholics are not only sexual perverts, but also taking specific actions to bring down the United States government.

 

[Mr. E]

One wonders why you would expend such time and energy investigating this oneorganization, unless you held a preset belief structure of intolerance toward the organization. And that is the definition of 'bigotted', isn't it? Being intolerant to a person or group based on their associations.

No. I am wary of this group because of their actions.

Despite what you have tried to say, I am not 'biggotted' against Muslims. I went out of my way to show that moderate Muslims stand against CAIR and have been targetted by them. CAIR does not stand for Muslims, only a fringe faction of them. I urge everyone to read what they have done and what they say instead of trying to paint someone (such as myself) as a bigot so as to marginalize them.

 

[michaeledward]

I urge everyone to read what they have done and what they say instead of trying to paint someone (such as myself) as a bigot so as to marginalize them.

No. I really don't need to be fear-mongered into reading anything. I refuse to be cowed in fear because it allows you to gain satisfaction.

 

[Mr. E]

No. I really don't need to be fear-mongered into reading anything.

I can't force you to open your mind and at least read what others have to say. But could you please allow others to read and discuss things without you disrupting the thread?

Please?

 

[michaeledward]

One wonders how my posts are preventing others from reading your posts?

And, one wonders how posting messages, on a message board, qualifies as 'disrupting' a message thread?

Unless, of course, only those who agree need apply. But, that brings us back to your first comment, doesn't it?

 

[Brian King]

Interesting articles Mr. E. thanks for bringing them forward. I have long had my opinions about this group and most other apologist groups. I listen to what they have to say and the distorted logic of their rhetoric and their emotional appeal and manipulation and have to roll my eyes. That so many take the word of voices over the radio or articles and press releases written on the internet continues to amuse me and validate my own opinions of the intellectual laziness of both the consumer and the provider of the today’s news. As in all things buyer beware.

Do not worry about being called bigot, racist or sexist etc. It is a very old and weakest form of argument to attack the messenger when unable to refute the message. Unfortunately it is often effective in silencing opposition to certain views in today’s Politically Correct hyper sensitive environment.

*OT* Could be an interesting thread Mr. E I would have gave you a positive rep hit for taking the time and effort and risk to post this thread, but just the other day gave you a negative rep hit for a post in a different thread and since I do not rep either positive or negative all too often, it will be awhile before I can again rep you. Regardless I continue to read your posts sir. Thank you

Brian King

 

[Mr. E]

Do not worry about being called bigot, racist or sexist etc. It is a very old and weakest form of argument to attack the messenger when unable to refute the message. Unfortunately it is often effective in silencing opposition to certain views in today’s Politically Correct hyper sensitive environment.

And it is one that CAIR has used to great effect.

Consider the case detailed in this article.

In November of 1999, two Saudi men were arrrested for trying to get into the cockpit of an American West flight. CAIR helped them to try to sue the airline for discrimination and tried to organize a boycott. CAIR wanted to punish the airline for stopping and arresting the two.

One, Hamdan al Shalawi, was later captured in Afghanistan with Al- Quaeda. The other, Muhammad Al-Qudhai’een, was arrested as a material witness for the 9-11 attacks in 2003. The FBI considers the incident a dry run for the 9-11 attacks. We really cannot know if CAIR's efforts intimidated any airline from taking action before the attacks for fear of facing a similar lawsuit and boycott.

But now we have the case of the flying imams. Six men who acccording to reports seemed to go out of their way to cause attention to themselves in an incident at Minneappolis. They left their assigned seats to a layout used by the 9-11 hijackers, asked for seat belt extensions they did not need and other acts that caused people to report them to the crew and led to them being taken off the flight. CAIR is helping the imams now as well. They even tried to bring legal action against those on the plane that reported the strange behavior to the crew. Congress passed a bill that would cover the reporting of suspicious acts in good faith and that part of the lawsuit was dropped.

But it clearly is a case of trying to intimidate people into looking the other way when they see behavior that may be suspicious. If the lawsuit had gone through, people might have been not eager to report something they saw for fear of being sued.

The time to be intimidated by the fear of possibly being branded an anti- Islamic bigot is over. We need to acknowledge that there are some muslims that are terrorists. Of course not all muslims are terrorists and they should not be treated as such. But anyone who did what the people that CAIR helped with their lawsuits should be viewed with suspicion. Just because they are muslim does not mean that they were the victims of discrimination. It means that they were acting in a way that caused suspicion. Being muslim gives them no right to try to get into cockpits or ignore orders to stay in their seats.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I can't force you to open your mind and at least read what others have to say. But could you please allow others to read and discuss things without you disrupting the thread?

Please?

No. I dont believe he can.

 

[Lisa]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

WE ARE LESS THEN 10 POSTS IN THIS THREAD AND WE HAVE RECEIVED MULTIPLE RTM'S REGARDING THIS THREAD.

DROP THE ISSUE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT OTHERS SAY USE THE IGNORE BUTTON. WE WILL BE DEALING WITH THE ISSUES THAT HAVE ARISEN THUS FAR.

ONE MORE AND THE THREAD WILL BE LOCKED.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.

 

[Mr. E]

ONE MORE AND THE THREAD WILL BE LOCKED.

But what if someone does not even want a subject to be discussed? What if someone is trying to shut down the thread so that it goes away? Aren't you just telling them how to get that done by posting just one more inflamatory post?

I do not want this thead shut down. If I did not want this discussed, I would not have started this thread. Instead of giving someone who might want this thread shut down the means, could you think about some pruning instead?

 

[Lisa]

But what if someone does not even want a subject to be discussed? What if someone is trying to shut down the thread so that it goes away? Aren't you just telling them how to get that done by posting just one more inflamatory post?

I do not want this thead shut down. If I did not want this discussed, I would not have started this thread. Instead of giving someone who might want this thread shut down the means, could you think about some pruning instead?

As I said, we are dealing with the problems brought to our attention thus far. This issue needs to be dropped. If you feel that is happening, RTM the posts and bring it to the attention of the moderators.

This issue is closed. Please return to the Original topic of the thread. Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.

 

[Mr. E]

Here is link to an article that details what I talked about the lawsuits brought by the "flying imams" with the help of CAIR.

The following quote from it should scare folks when taken in context with the attempt to brand anyone has suspicions about any Muslim.

Because we can't have police everywhere, civilian tips are indispensable. A video-store clerk alerted authorities to the Fort Dix plot after he saw a tape of men in Muslim attire firing guns — but not before he wondered, "Should I call someone or is that being racist?" Debra Burlingame points out that an airline employee who checked in two of the 9/11 passengers didn't ask for a special search of them because "I was worried about being accused of being 'racist.'"

So two of the 9-11 hijackers were not subjected to a special search because the employee was scared of being branded as a racist.

Keep that in mind as you see attack after attack by CAIR and their ilk against anyone that reports strange behavior.

 

[Tez3]

You'd have problems reporting strange behaviour here, it's an Englishman's right to be eccentric and I stand by that!

It's also a right in your country and mine to have legal representation whether you are guilty or not as the law says you are innocent until proved otherwise. Always a good thing to remember in so many different circumstances I find.

 

[Mr. E]

It's also a right in your country and mine to have legal representation whether you are guilty or not as the law says you are innocent until proved otherwise.

I think that you have mistaken CAIR's involvement.

They did not help either the people in 1999 or last year defend themselves in court. Instead, they were the ones to help launch a legal attack on others.

 

[Tez3]

I think that you have mistaken CAIR's involvement.

They did not help either the people in 1998 or last year defend themselves in court. Instead, they were the ones to help launch a legal attack on others.

You don't like them much do you?

 

[Mr. E]

You don't like them much do you?

No. Not really. Not with the things they have done and things they advocate.

There are Muslims trying to stop the radicalization and hijacking of their religion by a few hate-mongers. CAIR is one of the groups defending the violent radicals and attacking the moderate members of Islam. For some odd reason I just can't bring myself to have warm feelings for people that do that type of thing.

I urge you to read up on them and see for yourself the type of things they do. Read both sides of the story and make your own choices. I think that if you are honest and informed enough, you will come closer to my opinion than you are now.

 

[Tez3]

I don't have an opinion on them at all and I'm not about to form one.

Governments by nature are great lumbering beasts, it doesn't matter whether they are democratic or a dictatorship they are still slow in moving but they do move. You can rest assured that if this group is as dangerous as you stay your government is keeping it's eyes on it. and if it's as innocent as they say it it they have little to concern themselves about.

My main job when not distracted by squabbling squaddies on the pop is security and that means also intelligence. organisations that could be promoting terrosism or harbouring terrorists are very closly watched in ways that you may think only exist in spy films.

I have no doubts at all that your government's security people are watching this organisation very closely and there is no need at all for your country's citizens to bombard martial arts forums with a long list of links that few of us quite honestly have time to click onto as we are busy juggling what my government likes to call 'the work life balance.'

This thread is in great danger of becoming either a witch hunt or a farce. What worries me far more is that it has been raining nearly all summer here and this may well be the result of global warming. We have had horrendous floods with resultant lost of lives, homes and everything people have. If I were you I'd look more closely at your country's carbon footprint, it's refusal to sign the Kyoto Agreement and it's refusal to cut carbon emmissions. This is killing us all and soon there will be no world for anyone to take over.

That's my tuppence worth said!

 

[Brian King]

TEZ3 wrote

“I don't have an opinion on them at all and I'm not about to form one.”

This is an interesting statement to me. As a thinking feeling human I form opinions all the time, Coke-cola or Pepsi, Crest toothpaste or Colgate? Having an opinion is natural and a part of our survival system. It of course behooves us to form our opinions with as much information mixed with our common sense and experience as is possible. Denying ones opinions seems as unhealthy to me as those that are unwilling to even consider changing their opinion. Both attitudes seem stubborn and self destructive.

TEZ3 wrote

“I have no doubts at all that your government's security people are watching this organisation very closely and there is no need at all for your country's citizens to bombard martial arts forums with a long list of links that few of us quite honestly have time to click onto as we are busy juggling what my government likes to call 'the work life balance.'”

Well Tez3, I have to disagree a little. Not all of our governments security people can be watching this organization as most are very busy doing all that they can with-in our laws, which are much different than your countries laws. That there are reports and intelligence gatherings on this particular organization I would hope so, but I do not think it is guaranteed. We over here do not (yet) have cameras on every corner watching our citizens and our intelligence agencies are very much limited on what they can and how they can gather intelligence on our citizens especially as compared to what your government can gather on her subjects.

I agree that not all of my countries citizens need bombard martial art forums with threads containing long lists of links, let’s be honest; can one thread by one writer really make a blitz?

I can of course only speak for myself. There have been many threads with very long posts or by the time I have seen the thread there have been so many replies that with my time limited I can not hope to read the posts and give them the time needed to understand and process the information, time needed so that I can intelligently contribute to the thread, in those cases I choose to not participate other than as an interested observer (lurking I think it is called). A pet peeve of mine is when a post starts out with the “I have not read the whole thread but here is my opinion anyway”

If a person does not want to take the time or does not have the time perhaps to read the OP, perhaps they might want to consider holding their opinions of the OP until they can get the time. It is kind of like when having a conversation with adults and a child wanting attention keeps interrupting.

“This thread is in great danger of becoming either a witch hunt or a farce.”

Yes it is, so it would seem. Perhaps if those not wanting it to become such could take the time and consideration to word their posts so as to not purposely inflame others, combined with the thoughtfulness that if people are inflamed perhaps they could take a breathe and contemplate what they are writing and how it will be read by others before hitting send, then perhaps this thread may prove of interest and worthy discussion. Or yes it could be locked and drift to the bottom and the words and understanding left unthought-of and unsaid.

“What worries me far more is that it has been raining nearly all summer here and this may well be the result of global warming. We have had horrendous floods with resultant lost of lives, homes and everything people have. If I were you I'd look more closely at your country's carbon footprint, it's refusal to sign the Kyoto Agreement and it's refusal to cut carbon emmissions. This is killing us all and soon there will be no world for anyone to take over.”

Not sure what this has to do with the topic other than to perhaps get that last RTM thingy that the moderator warned about? Perhaps you can start your own thread blaming America for the rain in London and all the other woes the world faces, list your links and proof and state your opinion. It might be worth the discussion. As for telling Americans or others what they should look at, well that usually doesn’t go over very well. Nobody likes it and it usually results in stiffening of opinion rather than the openness that I am sure we all would prefer.


A reminder what the moderator wrote.
“WE HAVE RECEIVED MULTIPLE RTM'S REGARDING THIS THREAD”

And

“ONE MORE AND THE THREAD WILL BE LOCKED.”

It is for some an emotional subject yet passion can be harnessed for good honest discussion, those who do not have the time or control to participate (including lurkers such as myself) with out minding the moderators warning might better serve their time and emotional needs on a different thread.

My own opinion of the group here in question is rather low; I have read their own words, listened carefully to their spokesmen on television and radio and on the street (I could not finish the speech as the hate and ridiculousness of the speaker got too much for me) to form that opinion. I have traveled and I have seen and I refuse to let others think for me. Apologist whether individuals or groups that can only state their side of the story, their slant, and refuse to even hear or consider the other are amusing and flawed. This is one of those groups that can not even consider the others views but also only see their actions or the actions of those they choose to support in a rose colored tint, no matter the action, no matter the result. Their work is certainly cut out for them as they have to use such tangled logic and emotional arguments to try put those rose tint glasses on actions that can hardly be called anything other than evil. They may well have cause and right on their side on some issues but their refusal to call bad on others calls all their views into question and very much makes their work on those few issues where they can make a beneficial change much less likely.

Brian King

P.S.

“My main job when not distracted by squabbling squaddies on the pop”

LOL I have tried to find English to English translator on line but failed. I have absolutely no idea what the above means?
Bri

 

[Tez3]

Brian, I can quite easily not have an opinion on something! It requires not thinking about something though. I have so much to think about at the best of times that stuff quite easily slips through my brain.

I posted on this thread because of a thread somewhere else. I have actually read the whole thread though not the links.

What I was trying to point out when I said people should look at their carbon footprint is that it is something positive that people can do to improve the planet and lessen the destruction. As I said, there's no point in plotting to take over the world if we have no world left.It affects everyone after all. And I live four hundred miles from London!

You might not guarentee that there's intelligence being gathered on this organisation but I would (and will) and not just by the Americans, I can think of at least four other countries who will be monitoring them! The problem is that you live in a democracy that says free speech is a right and unfortunately that mean people being able to say things that are hateful to others. It's an old problem that has been debated by finer minds than mine, do you stifle free speech and only hear what pleases you or do you allow free speech and get stuff you don't want? This organisation is basically allowed to say what it wants but and it's a big but if it then starts taking actions which are against the law then you can close then down.

I think you may have got the wrong idea about CCTV in the UK. It's certainly not on every street corner, it's mostly confined to cities and then places where occurrances are likely. CCTV is also used as it is in the States in shops, banks and on some motorways.

Internet discussions rarely produce reasonable and constructive arguments, when it's something as emotive as this I have grave doubts whether this one will prove any different.

Squaddie = British Soldier

pop = booze, alcohol.

The British soldier has a huge propensity to fight, anyone, anywhere, they're not that fussed who, though a favourite is the Royal Military Police but then we all like a pop at them lol!