the black art

[Fiendlover]

so today i had a seminar with Shihan Sensei Lou Casamassa (the founder of Red Dragon Karate) and he was telling us a little bit about Kun Tao Kung Fu, the Black Art. Supposedly this is the basis of what the ninjas learned from and he told us that there are only four black sashes in....im not sure if he said in the state (california) or not :idunno: and that it is one of the deadliest arts (hence called the black art) and that you're not supposed to practice in front of anyone while you do it and also that it isn't a popular teaching. so i was wondering if anyone one here does it or has anymore information it. i read another thread about how someone got there black sash but i wasnt sure if they were reffering to kun tao kung fu or if there are other styles where they are reffered to sashes instead of belts.

so thank you for your information ahead of time.

 

[Steel Tiger]

As far as I know Kuntao is the term used generally in southeast Asia for gongfu. I have not heard any sinister stories about it beyond those normal told of gongfu styles.

I had always been under the impression that taijustu had likely developed from jujutsu.

Here is a little something about Kuntao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kun_Tao

 

[Hand Sword]

Be skeptical of this "The Deadliest Art" that can't be "viewed" and that only a few have "mastered" and are unnamed.

IMHO it's all mystical crap. With the focus of training pointed in a certain direction, all of the arts are equally deadly.

 

[exile]

Be skeptical of this "The Deadliest Art" that can't be "viewed" and that only a few have "mastered" and are unnamed.

IMHO it's all mystical crap. With the focus of training pointed in a certain direction, all of the arts are equally deadly.

Amen to that.

The nastiest, most unpleasant techs I've ever seen were some FMA techs shown us, in plain view, in the light of day, at last year's MT Meet & Greet in Buffalo. They would have given the Marquis de Sade the willies, but they were just part and parcel of the daily business of reducing your attacker to minute particles that the FMAs seem to take this very workaday attitude toward. Anything 'deadlier' than that belongs in a museum of mediæval torture.

Hand Sword's caveat is right on the money... and money is what this kind of legend involving ultra-deadly secret techniques (aka 'Lt. X' and full page ads in Black Belt) is all about. In the TMAs, there are plenty of nonsecret techniques which are as deadly as anyone could ask for...

 

[Fiendlover]

thanks for the advice and not to sound stupid but um what do

IMHO, FMA, and TMA stand for? i know im a teen but i still have trouble deciphering abbreviations...............

 

[Hand Sword]

thanks for the advice and not to sound stupid but um what do

IMHO, FMA, and TMA stand for? i know im a teen but i still have trouble deciphering abbreviations...............

In My humble opinion
Filipino Martial arts
and Traditional Martial arts

 

[Fiendlover]

In My humble opinion
Filipino Martial arts
and Traditional Martial arts

thank you. :boing1:

 

[tellner]

Just to echo and expand on the excellent responses so far...

Kun Tao, Chuan Fa, Ken Po and a bunch of others are all different dialects' names for the same thing - Boxing. So Kun Tao Kung Fu is, well, kinda redundant except that Kung Fu doesn't just refer to martial arts.

When you hear Kun Tao it generally means the Chinese martial arts as they evolved in the Malay world - Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, Brunei, parts of Thailand. Since they were subjected to different conditions and fighting styles they took different tracks than the original Chinese arts. If it's taught well by someone with understanding, two very big "ifs", it is really good stuff. But it's not magic. It's just martial arts. And the "We taught the ninjas[sic] stuff is plain BS.

The late William Reeders, Willem de Thouars and the Bangau Putih system are among the most influential and best known Kun Tao lineages in North America.

Some Silat and Kun Tao schools use belts or sashes. Some don't.

Kun Tao people are often a bit secretive about what they do. Some of it is older traditions. Some of it is a result of the racism people of Chinese background have experienced in Indonesia and Malaysia.

I'd be interested in Mr. Casamassa's background in Silat and Kun Tao. He mentions Silat and talks about "traveling the Orient" but is very vague about everything except his Judo training.

 

[Tez3]

I was a little concerned when I read on the OPs thread saying he was going on this seminar and that Mr. Casamassa demanded total respect, that concern has grown a little with this thread.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62053

 

[Jade Tigress]

Ditto to what everyone else has said, and also would like to add that all Chinese martial arts use sashes not belts, so that is not something unique.

I was a little concerned when I read on the OPs thread saying he was going on this seminar and that Mr. Casamassa demanded total respect, that concern has grown a little with this thread.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62053

One thing that always bothers me is the "demands" respect thing. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it, and I have a low opinion of instructors who hold that "kiss my feet I am god" attitude.

 

[thetruth]

Ditto to what everyone else has said, and also would like to add that all Chinese martial arts use sashes not belts, so that is not something unique.



One thing that always bothers me is the "demands" respect thing. You can't demand respect, you have to earn it, and I have a low opinion of instructors who hold that "kiss my feet I am god" attitude.

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!! I actually have all 4 of those mentioned black sashes, I bought them off Ashida Kim.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[tellner]

Let me add another "Me too!" to Tez's concerns.

Anyone who "demands" "total respect" has shown rather forcefully that he does not deserve it. Strict hierarchies are one thing. Lots of organizations have them. But that doesn't mean you need to pee on yourself and tuck your tail to indicate that he is the one who owns the school.

This is a commercial dojo. He's set up a fantasy world. You pay money for the privilege of learning martial arts in the framework of the shared fantasy he's designed. I've got no doubt that he's an excellent martial artist with a lot of experience. He's also a seventy-plus year old guy who puts his pants on the same way that you do, eats, sleeps and goes to the bathroom. He's not a deity, and you do yourself a disservice by treating him like one.

Or as a friend of mine once said to a law professor...

"I don't mind being treated like this. And I don't mind paying to be treated like this. But if I'm going to pay to be treated like this you've got to wear the little leather bikini."

 

[jks9199]

Let me add another "Me too!" to Tez's concerns.

Anyone who "demands" "total respect" has shown rather forcefully that he does not deserve it. Strict hierarchies are one thing. Lots of organizations have them. But that doesn't mean you need to pee on yourself and tuck your tail to indicate that he is the one who owns the school.

This is a commercial dojo. He's set up a fantasy world. You pay money for the privilege of learning martial arts in the framework of the shared fantasy he's designed. I've got no doubt that he's an excellent martial artist with a lot of experience. He's also a seventy-plus year old guy who puts his pants on the same way that you do, eats, sleeps and goes to the bathroom. He's not a deity, and you do yourself a disservice by treating him like one.

Or as a friend of mine once said to a law professor...

"I don't mind being treated like this. And I don't mind paying to be treated like this. But if I'm going to pay to be treated like this you've got to wear the little leather bikini."

At the moment... I'm cutting the guy some slack. He seems to be running a pretty successful business, and I don't think he could do that while being patronizingly offensive about demanding respect.

Instead, I wonder if this isn't a case of two things coming together: local teachers who personally have a lot of respect for their teacher, and a motivated, impressionable, relatively young person taking that message very, very much to heart, and perhaps not conveying her intent perfectly.

That said -- that very naivette is worrying me a little. Kuntao is much better known today than it was even 10 years ago, as are the Japanese ninjutsu arts. The suggestion that they're historically linked is pretty easily rebutted... And the practice of using sashes in some styles, especially Filipino and Chinese arts, isn't at all a new or surprising thing.

 

[Hawke]

Greetings Fiend,

Did you like the seminar? Was the seminar more lectures or technique driven?

What did you think about the information shared at the seminar?

I am not familiar with Red Dragon Karate. I found a clip on YouTube.

Red Dragon Karate

 

[YoungMan]

FWIW,
I visited his son Chris' (I assume it was his son) website because some poster had mentioned studying under him. From the looks of it, he looks like a Hollywood/California-style martial artist who acts (although that may be too strong of a word) in TV and films and wears a pretty uniform.
Take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Langenschwert]

that it is one of the deadliest arts

Compared to what? Krav Maga? Kunst des Fechtens? Jiu Jutsu? Rapier Fencing? As long as it's a combat art trained properly it'll be plenty deadly.

Best regards,

-Mark (who like t3h d34d1y)

 

[Guardian]

so today i had a seminar with Shihan Sensei Lou Casamassa (the founder of Red Dragon Karate) and he was telling us a little bit about Kun Tao Kung Fu, the Black Art. Supposedly this is the basis of what the ninjas learned from and he told us that there are only four black sashes in....im not sure if he said in the state (california) or not :idunno: and that it is one of the deadliest arts (hence called the black art) and that you're not supposed to practice in front of anyone while you do it and also that it isn't a popular teaching. so i was wondering if anyone one here does it or has anymore information it. i read another thread about how someone got there black sash but i wasnt sure if they were reffering to kun tao kung fu or if there are other styles where they are reffered to sashes instead of belts.

so thank you for your information ahead of time.

I'm sure he's a fine teacher and all, but if it's such a secretive thing, he wouldn't be telling you all about it at a seminar that's for sure. That would definately leave doubt in my mind for sure. I'm sinnacle anyways about such things, but especially when they openly discuss such things that are secretive.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

I'm sure he's a fine teacher and all, but if it's such a secretive thing, he wouldn't be telling you all about it at a seminar that's for sure. That would definately leave doubt in my mind for sure. I'm sinnacle anyways about such things, but especially when they openly discuss such things that are secretive.

So true.

" Hey welcome to the Sith, we are secret order, only 2 of us exist going back 1000 years with no one knowing.
But I just met you so I'll tell you all about it."

The hook goes into the mouth and another kid worships a turkey.

My Sensei has been in Jujutsu since 62 or something like that, heads his own Kai but goes by Sensei.

I cant call anyone master since becoming an adult, maybe it's because i have met a few of these types in the past and see the damage they can do.

 

[tellner]

At the moment... I'm cutting the guy some slack. He seems to be running a pretty successful business, and I don't think he could do that while being patronizingly offensive about demanding respect.

Instead, I wonder if this isn't a case of two things coming together: local teachers who personally have a lot of respect for their teacher, and a motivated, impressionable, relatively young person taking that message very, very much to heart, and perhaps not conveying her intent perfectly.

Sometimes it's exactly that sort of patronizing offensiveness that makes the business successful. It's all about stories and getting people to play a part in them that involves giving you money every month.

Or not. I might just be in an overly suspicious mood these days.

That said -- that very naivette is worrying me a little. Kuntao is much better known today than it was even 10 years ago, as are the Japanese ninjutsu arts. The suggestion that they're historically linked is pretty easily rebutted...

That has a lot more to do with the era the teacher grew up in. There's more information out there now. People are more educated and have a different perspective. For most it's a technology. Forty years ago it was a whole different thing.

 

[IcemanSK]

Fiend,

I hope you had fun & learned some good things. But I also hope you keep your eyes open & ask yourself some of the questions that were brought up here.

I have one: Why would a legendary master teach "secret" techniques to a 17 year old kid who hasn't been back to his school in a year? Because your school donated more to a cause? That's a bit odd to me.

I've been in MA for more than 25 years. I've had my times of absolutely being awstruck at meeting & training with "the biggies" in the Arts. Time has also taught me that they are all very human.