The 21 foot rule

[Cryozombie]

How many of you have ben trained in the 21 foot rule, and how many of you have adapted that beyond firearms and into other martial arts practice?

Also Is it as commonly taught to police officers as i've been led to believe?

The 21 foot rule basicaly states that an average opponent can reach you, from 21 feet out, in 1.3 seconds average time, which is not enough time to draw a weapon and fire to stop him before he can cut, club, or nail you, so you are justifed in having your weapon out and ready even if a potential attacker is that far away. (yeah this was presented to me as a LEO training situation)

 

[clapping_tiger]

We have been taught that 21 foot rule. We have not really adapted it into our training, but have been made aware of it. The main focus of the training I received was some adrenaline stress training. We had someone yelling at us using profanity, comments about weight, sex and race. Just like someone would on the street if they were trying to provoke you into a fight. We were also attacked with blind side tackles and put into scenarios where you start off confronting 1 guy and then his buddies come out of nowhere. We were taught how to "listen" to what was said. Things like, I'm gonna cut you or things like that. Even if you see no weapon, sometimes what they say may reveal any weapons they may have on them. Anyway, we were told this 21 foot rule applys more twards police officers (like you said) because they may have a suspect when they come on scene who may be a little ways away, but may still be dangerous. For us, most conflicts start within 5 feet or so. But we did play a little with the 20 foot rule by charging someone and seeing how long it would take to react, pretty scary how fast you can close distance.

 

[lhommedieu]

The 21 foot rule is described extensively in the the instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," which is targeted towards LEO's. Specifically, it deals with the impracticality of firing a holstered firearm and stopping an assailant who charges at you from a crouched posture from a distance of 21 feet or shorter. While some officers are able to get a shot off in simulations, most (if not all) are stabbed by the "assailant" due to his or her momentum.

Noted Filipino and Indonesian martial artistists Leo Gaje and Eddie Jafre, respectively, are among the actors. The video also interviews several LEO's who survived edged weapon attacks.

In real life, there have been many incidents of officers shooting their assailants, only to die as a result of knife wounds suffered during the shooting. The point of the video is to show why this is so, and also to show how this can be potentially avoided. One practice that is advocated is that officers have their weapons out of their holsters when approaching a suspect. Another practice that is advocated is that officers employ backward and lateral movement while unholstering their firearms during an attack.

It is interesting to note that there have been legal cases involving officers who shot knife-wielding suspects, wherein the "21 foot" rule has been sucessfully used as a defense.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
The 21 foot rule is described extensively in the the instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," which is targeted towards LEO's. Specifically, it deals with the impracticality of firing a holstered firearm and stopping an assailant who charges at you from a crouched posture from a distance of 21 feet or shorter. While some officers are able to get a shot off in simulations, most (if not all) are stabbed by the "assailant" due to his or her momentum.
Best,

Steve Lamade

Steve,

I saw this demonstrated in the Massad Ayoob video "How Close is Too Close" they said a lot of the same things this video says... I guess that could be good testimony to the fact that the information is consistant, at least...

 

[lhommedieu]

Ayoob would readily admit the positive influence of Surviving Edged Weapons on his curriculum; the origin of the rule in anyone's guess.

Best,

Steve

 

[DAC..florida]

I was taught this in my Law Enforcement accademy!

It is very scary how close a person can get before you have time to unholster and fire, keep in mind that this is under no stress and you know whats coming at you. I cant even imagine the time it would take in a real life scenario concidering the bad guy has the element of surprize on thier side? Also cocider that most police officers are now issued a paddle style holster wich lessons the chance of the bad guy getting your weapon from you but it is also a little slower for the LEO to unholster.

We were taught to move back and to the side while unholstering are firearm to allow some extra space and time before the attack.This is the only time in my LEO training that we were allowed to move away from the threat.


:asian:

 

[lost_tortoise]

I have used demonstrations of the 21 foot rule in order to shut down the "while you're doing all that fancy stuff, I'd just pull out a gun and shoot you..." people. Many inflated fellows see you train and think that life is a scene from Indiana Jones. When shown the 21 foot rule, they quickly change their tone.

 

[Cryozombie]

Originally posted by lost_tortoise
I have used demonstrations of the 21 foot rule in order to shut down the "while you're doing all that fancy stuff, I'd just pull out a gun and shoot you..." people. Many inflated fellows see you train and think that life is a scene from Indiana Jones. When shown the 21 foot rule, they quickly change their tone.

Interesting!

 

[Cthulhu]

I believe this 21-foot rule comes from the Tueller Drill, named after Sgt. Dennis Tueller, who published an article about this topic in SWAT Magazine, I believe.

Cthulhu

 

[theletch1]

I know that the LEOs in my area train with the 21' rule. I train with officers from several counties and we have discussed this rule on several occassions. All of them have responded in the affirmitive when asked if they have been trained to draw their sidearm at this distance. A couple of them allowed me to try to stab them with a training knife from 20-25 feet out just to see how fast the distance could be closed. I'm quick, but not lightening fast and still the space between us seemed to just disappear.

 

[Cruentus]

I apply it in both situations. In otherwords, not only can a guy close on me with an edged weapon from 21 feet away before I can draw my firearm, but I CAN CLOSE ON HIM BEFORE HE CAN DRAW HIS. This helps me for home defense because I currently do not keep a readily accessable firearm in my apartment. I have blades, however, hidden everywhere in my place in everyroom and no more then 20 feet away from each other.

I figure if I have an intruder, I have a blade accessable to draw and close no matter what room I am in. Because I know my own place, so I will have the advantage even if he has a firearm, unless he has the drop on me. anywhere you go in my apartment is "close-quarters," So I feel that a blade will be as effective as a gun for home protection in this case. I will consider a firearm for home protection after I get a bigger home where it would make a significant differance.

I would want training, however. I have had some. So, I may get one sooner for additional shooting training.

 

[A.R.K.]

Not much that I can add to the very excellent posts above. The video mentioned above 'Surviving Edged Weapons' is readily available to citizens as well as those in L.E. I would recommend it to all serious MA's.

It provides a very blunt reality check.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I think there's some discussion of this here too.