That's just not how it works in real life.

[Gerry Seymour]

That was probably the Basketball Free Throws study. It's mentioned in the Psychology Today article but basically, they had 3 groups. A group that practiced free throws, one that just imagined practicing free throws, and a control that did neither. While the group that actually practiced improved the most, the imagination group improved significantly as well. Control, of course, showed no improvement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes, I think that is the one. I forget the details on a regular basis, and have to keep looking it up to cite it.

 

[lklawson]

I anxiously await the emergence of a pro athlete or fighter that has got to where he has by sitting and visualizing.

I eagerly await the emergence of a cogent response instead of a Straw Man argument.

I agree it doesn't hurt, but you just won't get the physiological conditioning, nor is anything you visualize likely to reflect a reality you haven't actually experienced.

Shockingly, no one suggested that. What has been pointed out is that Visualization Drills have been an important component of modern training, particularly within professional sports training. Perhaps you should take a bit of time and look into the actual claims being made instead of knocking down straw men. The Russians totally revolutionized sports training in the 70's, partially using these techniques to improve the performance of their Olympic athletes.

Frankly these appeals to Straw Men are becoming a pattern with you.

 

[jobo]

I eagerly await the emergence of a cogent response instead of a Straw Man argument.

Shockingly, no one suggested that. What has been pointed out is that Visualization Drills have been an important component of modern training, particularly within professional sports training. Perhaps you should take a bit of time and look into the actual claims being made instead of knocking down straw men. The Russians totally revolutionized sports training in the 70's, partially using these techniques to improve the performance of their Olympic athletes.

Frankly these appeals to Straw Men are becoming a pattern with you.

that's where sports science starts to blend with chi, once you are accepting that visualisation and meditation can significantly improve performance,bit opens up other areas for serious consideration

 

[Martial D]

I eagerly await the emergence of a cogent response instead of a Straw Man argument.

Shockingly, no one suggested that. What has been pointed out is that Visualization Drills have been an important component of modern training, particularly within professional sports training. Perhaps you should take a bit of time and look into the actual claims being made instead of knocking down straw men. The Russians totally revolutionized sports training in the 70's, partially using these techniques to improve the performance of their Olympic athletes.

Frankly these appeals to Straw Men are becoming a pattern with you.

It is one of life's special ironies when the accusation of using a straw man argument is itself a straw man argument.

Someone claimed visualization was 60% as effective as actual training vis a vis results. If that were true we should expect to see at least lower teir top athletes that don't train at all.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It is one of life's special ironies when the accusation of using a straw man argument is itself a straw man argument.

Someone claimed visualization was 60% as effective as actual training vis a vis results. If that were true we should expect to see at least lower teir top athletes that don't train at all.

60% improvement in technique != 60% all around improvement

 

[lklawson]

It is one of life's special ironies when the accusation of using a straw man argument is itself a straw man argument.

Speaking of "special" ...you must be. Perhaps you should google up what a Straw Man argument is. It is apparent that you don't seem to know.

Someone claimed visualization was 60% as effective as actual training vis a vis results. If that were true we should expect to see at least lower teir top athletes that don't train at all.

First, I didn't write that so I'm not planning on defending it. Second, it's still pretty clear that you have no frigg'n clue what Visualization Drills are or how they are applied in sports and combat psychology. Go educate yourself and stop blabbering in ignorance.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Someone claimed visualization was 60% as effective as actual training vis a vis results. If that were true we should expect to see at least lower teir top athletes that don't train at all.

Training only 60% as effectively as the competition doesn't get you even into the lower tier of top athletes.

Also, that 60% strictly applies to skill acquisition (training the nervous system), not to developing power or conditioning or other physiological adaptations. I don't care how skilled you are, you don't get to be a top athlete without those physical attributes.

The main virtues of visualization training, IMHO, are as follows:

• It allows the practitioner to do additional skill practice after they have already done enough physical training that they need rest to avoid injuries and allow recovery.
• It allows a practitioner to rehearse moves which require a partner when there is no partner available.
• It allows the practitioner to work on building or maintaining skill in circumstances where physical practice isn't practical (ex - sitting on a plane)

BTW, that 60% figure comes from a specific study for a specific skill set for a specific population. There are a lot of factors which can affect it. The more skilled and knowledgeable the practitioner is for the skills at hand, the more benefit they will get*. The more they understand the exact details of the movement they are practicing, the more benefit they will get. I suspect there are also natural individual differences in the ability to focus and mentally rehearse skills.

*(It's not uncommon these days for me to study a new BJJ technique on video, spend time mentally rehearsing it, and then successfully execute it in sparring in my next class without ever having physically drilled it with a live partner. I would not have been able to do that 15 years ago.)

 

[hoshin1600]

Visualization Drills have been an important component of modern training,

it was a component of old training as well in Asia. there is this thing they call kata, where you physically move thru space as you imagine attacks coming at you.

you modern warriors should try it sometime.

 

[lklawson]

it was a component of old training as well in Asia. there is this thing they call kata, where you physically move thru space as you imagine attacks coming at you.

you modern warriors should try it sometime.

Hahaha. Props bro. There's still no real consensus of what Kata is, its purpose, or the benefits thereof. Ask 6 different martial artists and you'll get 9 different answers. If you use Kata as a component of Visualization Drills, then I have little doubt that it can be effectively applied in that manner.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[hoshin1600]

So your thesis has a small problem. It is a classical conditioning fact, taken advantage of by sports trainers, shooters, LEO, and the military, that when presented with a visual stimuli that the person WILL respond with a programmed technique or series of techniques.

small problem with this thesis.
the issue is that the stimuli within martial arts training often does not look like the stimuli that will be encountered in real situations.
thus the brain will draw a blank when looking for the response.
this is what i meant when i posted that the reality within the dojo must match the street reality.
not all arts practice the same so some will match but many wont.

 

[hoshin1600]

There's still no real consensus of what Kata is, its purpose,

the purpose is what ever you use it for. i use it as visualization and muscle memory, stimulus, response training as well as hard wiring things like visual scanning of the area for threats and other things. other people may have no use for kata. but my personal kata are not the same ones used by most karate students so i dont have a lot of the same bunkai or mechanics issues that others have.

 

[Martial D]

Speaking of "special" ...you must be. Perhaps you should google up what a Straw Man argument is. It is apparent that you don't seem to know.

First, I didn't write that so I'm not planning on defending it. Second, it's still pretty clear that you have no frigg'n clue what Visualization Drills are or how they are applied in sports and combat psychology. Go educate yourself and stop blabbering in ignorance.

Blah blah blah. I'd put my logic skills against anyone. If you don't understand why you conjuring up a straw man straw man is itself a straw man, that's on you..but I'm afraid I'm not going to chase your red herring any further away from the topic. What you think of what I think just isn't important enough to me.

 

[Martial D]

it was a component of old training as well in Asia. there is this thing they call kata, where you physically move thru space as you imagine attacks coming at you.

you modern warriors should try it sometime.

You guys act like tma has a monopoly on this stuff. I guess the words shadow boxing don't ring a bell?

Nobody is saying visualization is useless, but there is a point at which it spills over into play acting.

 

[Ironbear24]

I suspect the problem is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of your training.
You're not being taught techniques. It just looks like you are. What you're really being taught is movement, balance, timing, positioning, etc. When you understand the principles behind the "techniques" used as teaching tools, you'll move in the correct and appropriate way in pretty much any circumstance.

In Kenpo and many styles there are techniques where if enemy does this you do that. For example there is sword of destruction to deal with a left straight, you block it with an outward block with left hand,front kick the groin with left leg or the stomach, then bring with down on their colar bone with a chop with the left hand, it's basically delayed sword but done with the other side instead of the right side.

I have never done this or any kenpo technique in a real life situation, however doing these drills I feel gave me the understanding of "what to do" in a fight.

For example instead of delayed sword or any of the hundreds of fancy pants named techniques made to deal with a left jab. I did a simple inward block with my left hand and stepped in with a right hook, then knee to the stomach, grab their head and cross step turning them over to the floor.

I didn't use sword of destruction but I used the principles that these many techniques showed me, which enabled me to do my own thing. I feel this is supposed to be the result of all the rehearsed technique training.

 

[lklawson]

small problem with this thesis.
the issue is that the stimuli within martial arts training often does not look like the stimuli that will be encountered in real situations.

That's an issue with trying to apply any Classical Conditioning response to a visualization drill. Doesn't have to be "martial arts." Could just as easily be tennis or something else.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

the purpose is what ever you use it for. i use it as visualization and muscle memory, stimulus, response training as well as hard wiring things like visual scanning of the area for threats and other things. other people may have no use for kata.

Fair enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Blah blah blah. I'd put my logic skills against anyone. If you don't understand why you conjuring up a straw man straw man is itself a straw man, that's on you..but I'm afraid I'm not going to chase your red herring any further away from the topic. What you think of what I think just isn't important enough to me.

Did you come up with that nonsense all on you own?

Never mind. It doesn't matter.

The point is that you have repeatedly attributed positions to posters in this thread which they did not take. You have also repeatedly demonstrated by your writing that you don't really know what Visualization Drills are or how they're used. Simply put, you're not educated about them and you keep trying to obfuscate with Straw Man attacks.

I understand that you are upset that your initial statement was disproved, but this behavior isn't going to help. Normally, your best bet would have been to just go, "OK, I see your point." However, by now, I'm not sure there's any rescue for your position. Now your best be is to quit before you get further behind.

 

[Martial D]

Did you come up with that nonsense all on you own?

Never mind. It doesn't matter.

The point is that you have repeatedly attributed positions to posters in this thread which they did not take. You have also repeatedly demonstrated by your writing that you don't really know what Visualization Drills are or how they're used. Simply put, you're not educated about them and you keep trying to obfuscate with Straw Man attacks.

I understand that you are upset that your initial statement was disproved, but this behavior isn't going to help. Normally, your best bet would have been to just go, "OK, I see your point." However, by now, I'm not sure there's any rescue for your position. Now your best be is to quit before you get further behind.

Hubris.

You done ranting? Take a deep breath.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is one of life's special ironies when the accusation of using a straw man argument is itself a straw man argument.

Someone claimed visualization was 60% as effective as actual training vis a vis results. If that were true we should expect to see at least lower teir top athletes that don't train at all.

I just pointed out the results of an actual experiment. If you don't agree, challenge the experiment.

60% of the results would not be good enough for to make the lower tier of top athletes. The discrepancy between top and lower tiers of those folks isn't that big. Add to that the fact that pretty much all top-tier athletes use visualization, and you get an even larger discrepancy, should someone choose only to use the visualization.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hahaha. Props bro. There's still no real consensus of what Kata is, its purpose, or the benefits thereof. Ask 6 different martial artists and you'll get 9 different answers. If you use Kata as a component of Visualization Drills, then I have little doubt that it can be effectively applied in that manner.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

One of the reasons I introduced kata was to give students a way to practice visualizing. I found that many, when they start, are unable to visualize where the other person is. They need practice at that, and kata seems to help (still early in the process), at least when I force them to move as if there was an actual person there.