That's just not how it works in real life.

Martial D

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I was first going to place this in the WC forum, but it isn't a problem specific to that. Then, I was going to place it in CMM, but it isn't really specific to any one style..

This is something I see a lot in discussions around here, but not just here, pretty much whenever the subject is broached. It generally reads something like..

If my opponent does X I would just do Y, Z, a spinning G, two Fs and a C..fight over. It's like an imaginary Van Damm movie is playing out in their head and spilling into a post.

It's BS. That's just not how it works in real life. You can prepare yourself to the best of you ability, but you'll never know how you will react to a given situation until you experience said situation. It will rarely, if ever, happen according to any script, and this is especially true in a heated situation on the cusp of, or in the midst of, real combat. At that point the choreographer will be notably absent.
 

Dirty Dog

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I suspect the problem is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of your training.
You're not being taught techniques. It just looks like you are. What you're really being taught is movement, balance, timing, positioning, etc. When you understand the principles behind the "techniques" used as teaching tools, you'll move in the correct and appropriate way in pretty much any circumstance.
 
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Martial D

Martial D

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I suspect the problem is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of your training.
You're not being taught techniques. It just looks like you are. What you're really being taught is movement, balance, timing, positioning, etc. When you understand the principles behind the "techniques" used as teaching tools, you'll move in the correct and appropriate way in pretty much any circumstance.
It isn't me that has misunderstood anything, but many many people seem to misunderstand the nature of actual combat.

You, in a way, just did the very thing I was referring to. You just assume your body will respond in the 'right way'. Have you tested that?
 

Dirty Dog

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It isn't me that has misunderstood anything, but many many people seem to misunderstand the nature of actual combat.

You, in a way, just did the very thing I was referring to. You just assume your body will respond in the 'right way'. Have you tested that?

Of course. I've been assaulted countless times in the ER. I've had knives pulled on me 3 times (plus once in the street), a gun once. I've taken who knows how many knives and guns off patients before they were drawn.
If your body isn't moving properly, you haven't understood the principles.
 
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Martial D

Martial D

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I used to think along these same lines once. I believed in my training, my system. I remember walking into my first Mui Thai class armed only with a bunch of theory and technique I had drilled over some years. I was so sure I could beat anyone.

That was the day I completely rewrote my approach, and began to diversify.
 
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Martial D

Martial D

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Of course. I've been assaulted countless times in the ER. I've had knives pulled on me 3 times (plus once in the street), a gun once. I've taken who knows how many knives and guns off patients before they were drawn.
If your body isn't moving properly, you haven't understood the principles.
And of those situations, how many were something you could have predicted, resulting in a prescripted set of moves that actually happened as you expected?
 

jobo

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It isn't me that has misunderstood anything, but many many people seem to misunderstand the nature of actual combat.

You, in a way, just did the very thing I was referring to. You just assume your body will respond in the 'right way'. Have you tested that?
there is always a chance someone will freeze under pressure, you see it in all sports like when a player misses an open goal. Tapping in at a practise match is very different to a cup final with 100, 000 fans watching.

but you really can't recreate the pressure of a cup final or your your example the pressure of some one trying to kill you to a ring. Your mma dude is just as likely to freeze as any other fighter when faced with real life and high stakes

if you freeze or not is down to particular personality types and how much control they have over their nervous system. The more your have practised a move the more it is programmed in, the higher the chance of it working when you need it. There are however no guarantees
 

Tony Dismukes

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And of those situations, how many were something you could have predicted, resulting in a prescripted set of moves that actually happened as you expected?
If you go back and reread DD's original comment, he specifically says it's not about specific techniques. It's about developing attributes which will result in moving appropriately under pressure.
 
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Martial D

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If you go back and reread DD's original comment, he specifically says it's not about specific techniques. It's about developing attributes which will result in moving appropriately under pressure.
Yes, I know that. Yet, developing correct form and technique isn't enough.

Besides, that is beside the point. Saying 'my' body will respond appropriately' is all well and good until things start happening radically different than they did in the dojo, which itself is a few steps from thinking you can predict any fight, move by move. THAT just never happens, not in my rather extensive experience.
 

Tez3

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You just assume your body will respond in the 'right way'.

I find the idea of DD 'assuming' anything like that quite strange. I think you are assuming most people on here are young film fans with little experience in the 'real' world.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Yes, I know that. Yet, developing correct form and technique isn't enough.

Besides, that is beside the point. Saying 'my' body will respond appropriately' is all well and good until things start happening radically different than they did in the dojo, which itself is a few steps from thinking you can predict any fight, move by move. THAT just never happens, not in my rather extensive experience.
He isn't saying my body will respond appropriately, he's saying my body has responded appropriately. Basically negating the points your trying to make by saying hat his body won't. And as was stated, he's not saying developing form and technique is enough, but understanding the principles is what is needed.
 

Steve

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People believe different things. The good news is that most people will never need to find out for sure who is right and who isn't.
 
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Martial D

Martial D

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I find the idea of DD 'assuming' anything like that quite strange. I think you are assuming most people on here are young film fans with little experience in the 'real' world.
I'm not assuming anything. I see "if opponent does X I will do Y then Z" posts here(and everywhere this topic is broached) all the time. It just isn't realistic.
 

jobo

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And of those situations, how many were something you could have predicted, resulting in a prescripted set of moves that actually happened as you expected?
human beings are actually very predictable in their movement patteer
Yes, I know that. Yet, developing correct form and technique isn't enough.

Besides, that is beside the point. Saying 'my' body will respond appropriately' is all well and good until things start happening radically different than they did in the dojo, which itself is a few steps from thinking you can predict any fight, move by move. THAT just never happens, not in my rather extensive experience.
but they don't happen that differently. There are only a limited number of ways a fellow human can attack you.
 

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You train hard so you get instincts so you don't have to think about what you do and if someone doesn't react the way you want then you go into something else. I've never seen anyone here say that something will work 100% of the time. The whole point of techniques are to give you tools and to get them sharp like a builder he may never not need his chisel in 10 different jobs but he may need it once but when he does then that chisel will be sharp and ready for use. Same goes for fighting.
 
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Martial D

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He isn't saying my body will respond appropriately, he's saying my body has responded appropriately. Basically negating the points your trying to make by saying hat his body won't. And as was stated, he's not saying developing form and technique is enough, but understanding the principles is what is needed.

Yes, that is also what I am saying. But that understanding doesn't come without the knowledge that you can rarely, if ever, predict how any given altercation will happen.

You plan to do Y, Z in response to X but suddenly you are on your back. Ears ringing and vision flashing white because it didn't work. What then?
 

wingchun100

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Anyone who thinks in terms of how you can always counter attack A with moves B-C-D-E is naturally going to get their butts handed to them. To paraphrase Bruce Lee, we are not machines...we are human beings, fluid and alive. This is why sparring in any class is so important. You can't just train pre-set self-defense applications. That's a given in ANY martial arts school.

Having said, pre-determined drills can be useful if your Sifu (or you, if you are the teacher) is trying to teach the structure of a specific technique.
 

Tez3

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I'm not assuming anything. I see "if opponent does X I will do Y then Z" posts here(and everywhere this topic is broached) all the time. It just isn't realistic.

I don't think what you are 'reading' is what you think you are reading. If you see these posts all the time quote some so we can see exactly the point you are making, because I rather think you are mistaking the intent of those posts and they don't mean what they think you mean. At the very least quote them so the posters can explain rather than you having a scattergun rant at us all.
 

DanT

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Once you perfect the technique, the applications are endless.

Once you perfect the principal, the applications are endless.

I agree, it may not work that way in a fight. But you develop the skills to use each of those now perfect techniques when you want.
 
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