That's just not how it works in real life.

[drop bear]

an arm bar full power is a broken arm, or at least badly damaged tendons.

Not really. If an arm bar is done right. It doesnt matter what speed it is done.

 

[jobo]

Not really. If an arm bar is done right. It doesnt matter what speed it is done.

I didn't any anything about speed, I said full power, though speed is a part of that. There are to purposes to an arm bar or wrist lock, 1) to cause enough pain that they give up2) to cause as much damage as you can so they are incapable f Carry on

 

[drop bear]

I didn't any anything about speed, I said full power, though speed is a part of that. There are to purposes to an arm bar or wrist lock, 1) to cause enough pain that they give up2) to cause as much damage as you can so they are incapable f Carry on

Not really

 

[jobo]

Not really

yes really, in street fighting if no interest in getting a submission, they are quite likely to come back with a weapon. Il damage the arm so it no longer works.
in ring work that considered bad form and in sparring work very much so

 

[drop bear]

yes really, in street fighting if no interest in getting a submission, they are quite likely to come back with a weapon. Il damage the arm so it no longer works.
in ring work that considered bad form and in sparring work very much so

You are welcome to do what you want but an arm bar is ultimately about position not submission.

 

[jobo]

You are welcome to do what you want but an arm bar is ultimately about position not submission.

in ring work its about getting a tap out so you win. Back in the real world, there are no submission not referee and no score card. He can give in all he likes, I'm wrecking that arm.
I learnt at an early age that to fight anything but full on meant you would end up getting hurt yourself. I let some on. Go once and they came back with a base ball bat. They wouldn't be doing with that if I had broke their arm

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are welcome to do what you want but an arm bar is ultimately about position not submission.

Agreed, especially in a self-defense context (I'll let others speak to the competition context) - use it to gain control and gain position for continued control, whether by that technique or something else. Is that what you were saying? That's especially true when an arm bar is used as a takedown (rather than a pin or submission).

However, if the lock is done full-force and full-speed in training, it would likely be a dislocation (no time to tap out). I think that's what he's getting at.

 

[jobo]

Agreed, especially in a self-defense context (I'll let others speak to the competition context) - use it to gain control and gain position for continued control, whether by that technique or something else. Is that what you were saying? That's especially true when an arm bar is used as a takedown (rather than a pin or submission).

However, if the lock is done full-force and full-speed in training, it would likely be a dislocation (no time to tap out). I think that's what he's getting at.

nearly but not quite, in a real fight its about gaining position, gaining control and then causing significant damage so the fight is over. There are no submissions' in a street fight. The. Fight is over when one,side is incapable of carrying on.

I'm beginning to thing that a lot of the people who are cheer leading for mma and similar haven't got a great deal of experience with actual real word fights. People submit and then quite contrary to the rules of mma pick up a brick and hit you with it or go to their car and produce a bat or a wrench

 

[JP3]

What "illusions" exactly were crushed?

OK, in sequence...

Coming out of the TKD/HKD, in which I thought I was pretty bad-*** (previous posts about 20-something JP3 inserted here) I thought that I'd walk into the Thai-boxing gym and destroy those guys with my kicks.

....ooops... never even got a chance to really throw them. Hard to do when someone Knows that's what you're about and they are out to take your head off with traditional boxing combos. Then, when you've figured out what it means to Really "keep your hands up" they turned to destroying my base, kicking the legs themselves.... Man! It is Really distracting to take a leg kick when you have no idea how to deal with it.

I got better. Figured out the cues. Learned that, even though I've got the wingspan of a orangutan I'm best working inside with short, choppy strikes, knees and elbows and when they back out to get out of the woodchipper That's when the head kicks get landed.

So, my new Muay Thai self heads off to a new city for more school, and I can't keep doing the MT, so I met a guy who has a TKD/Judo school, and I start that.

I never knew that it was so easy to dump me on my a$$ all that time. Again, I wanted to learn big, super-nifty throws, but what I found out was that what I was good at were the ashi-waza, like the sweeps and reaps... probably because of all the leg/foot control coming out of TKD/HKD and MT.

Then, a judo 2nd dan under my belt, I thought I was all that ont he ground, so I started going to BJJ class. In the first class, I crushed the drills, got sweaty int he conditioning... and got tapped int he first minute of my first free-roll with a blue belt which I outweighed by probably 50 pounds. Triangle choke. Felt like my head was going to pop off and land outside.

Since then, I've developed a lot more patience, use way less energy, and flow from one spot tot he other without locking things down and just ... wait ont he other guy to make a mistake. Sometimes he/she does, sometimes not, but I've not been tapped in a bit, so that's good.

 

[JP3]

a fight, a real fight, isn't a predictable narrative you can build prior to combat and proceed to execute step by step. It just isn't.

If you do not hold the position that it is(the proverbial you), then why even argue?

The top sentence above... I agree with. I didn't take that to be your initial meaning int he O/P though.

What I'm understanding from you is that you're saying, "If you think that a fight is going to be Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 etc and then around Step 7 the person will be on the ground unconscious." Is flawed, fallacious, and misleading.

I can agree witht hat. Is that accurate?

 

[JP3]

I have plenty of partners who will let me train full power. I don't because someone would have to scoop me up with a trowel afterwards.

There is even a little speech made before sparring to pretty much that. It ends with if you start you have to finish. There is no running off mid round.

The 25 y/o me would have loved that gym, Drop.

The 35 y/o me would frown a little and just go lift weights.

The 45 y/o me says, "Way to go! Atta boy!" to you, and heads off to get a beer.

 

[JP3]

Arm bars and submissions dont really sort of work because they are full contact though. They work because you cant get out of them.

Let's all keep in mind that the only reason that an arm bar "exists" is because we don't just break the arm.

And... the reason we don't just break the arm is?

1. We want to be able to play again, tomorrow.

2. We don't want them to break OUR own arm.

 

[Martial D]

The top sentence above... I agree with. I didn't take that to be your initial meaning int he O/P though.

What I'm understanding from you is that you're saying, "If you think that a fight is going to be Step 1, Step 2, Step 3 etc and then around Step 7 the person will be on the ground unconscious." Is flawed, fallacious, and misleading.

I can agree witht hat. Is that accurate?

I'd stop at around step 2, but ya pretty much.

 

[jobo]

Let's all keep in mind that the only reason that an arm bar "exists" is because we don't just break the arm.

And... the reason we don't just break the arm is?

1. We want to be able to play again, tomorrow.

2. We don't want them to break OUR own arm.

this, very much so. The mma is watered down techneques for sanitised sports fighting, people get,a bit hurt, but serolious injuries' are very rare.

people mock the to deadly to spar idea, but with the style I do a large % of the techniques are to dangerous to spar. I have to stop my spinning,arm bar before I actually break someone's arm. my side kick / stamp to the knee cant be done real time as it would result in breaking the knee and my groin punches have to be pulled for the sake of both decency and the injuries they would cause. The result is I'm dependent on learning skill I can never use unless its the real world. Where the mma have lesser skills that then can actually practise for real

but then I can practise rolling around on the ground a bit and throwing a few kicks and punches as well. So I think im in a better position

 

[drop bear]

this, very much so. The mma is watered down techneques for sanitised sports fighting, people get,a bit hurt, but serolious injuries' are very rare.

people mock the to deadly to spar idea, but with the style I do a large % of the techniques are to dangerous to spar. I have to stop my spinning,arm bar before I actually break someone's arm. my side kick / stamp to the knee cant be done real time as it would result in breaking the knee and my groin punches have to be pulled for the sake of both decency and the injuries they would cause. The result is I'm dependent on learning skill I can never use unless its the real world. Where the mma have lesser skills that then can actually practise for real

but then I can practise rolling around on the ground a bit and throwing a few kicks and punches as well. So I think im in a better position

If you can drop a guy with sanitised techniques. You should be more dangerous when allowed to use unsanitised ones.

And side kick stamp on the knee is a sanitised technique. It just doesn't work like you were told it does.

You can spinning arm bar all you want as well. Break the thing off. It has happened before.

 

[jobo]

If you can drop a guy with sanitised techniques. You should be more dangerous when allowed to use unsanitised ones.

And side kick stamp on the knee is a sanitised technique. It just doesn't work like you were told it does.

You can spinning arm bar all you want as well. Break the thing off. It has happened before.

as a general rule 50% of mma fighter's lose, sp clearly their techneque didn't work. A fighting style that only wins half the time its used is clearly not very good

 

[Tez3]

as a general rule 50% of mma fighter's lose, sp clearly their techneque didn't work. A fighting style that only wins half the time its used is clearly not very good

I wouldn't say it's their techniques that didn't work, I'd say it was their tactics that didn't. It could also be they chose the wrong opponent which happens quite a lot, people over estimating their experience and strength. A problem unique to competition of course, not applicable to the outside world.

 

[jobo]

I wouldn't say it's their techniques that didn't work, I'd say it was their tactics that didn't. It could also be they chose the wrong opponent which happens quite a lot, people over estimating their experience and strength. A problem unique to competition of course, not applicable to the outside world.

its very hard to split techniques and tatics, they are rather dependent on each other. If your technique isn't good your tactics doesn't work, if your tatics are poor your techniques' won't work. I put them in one big box. For instance if someone lunges to grab or push me I grab or their wrists and run backwards. This is both a techneque and a tactic.

most have to practise the techniques' of most tatics and the tatics of most techniques'

 

[Tez3]

its very hard to split techniques and tatics, they are rather dependent on each other. If your technique isn't good your tactics doesn't work, if your tatics are poor your techniques' won't work. I put them in one big box. For instance if someone lunges to grab or push me I grab or their wrists and run backwards. This is both a techneque and a tactic.

most have to practise the techniques' of most tatics and the tatics of most techniques'

I've seen, in fact reffed fighters with really good techniques and really bad tactics sometimes it the corner's faults when the fighter is inexperienced though The thing I love is the spectator's advice shouted out, their tactics are wonderful lol. experience usually sorts it all out, hence the expression there's no losers in an MMA fight, you may lose the fight but you win in gaining experience.

 

[jobo]

I've seen, in fact reffed fighters with really good techniques and really bad tactics sometimes it the corner's faults when the fighter is inexperienced though The thing I love is the spectator's advice shouted out, their tactics are wonderful lol. experience usually sorts it all out, hence the expression there's no losers in an MMA fight, you may lose the fight but you win in gaining experience.

off course there are losers, that's this nonsense about taking part being a win. Or that getting your brains scrambled is good for experience.