That's just not how it works in real life.

[hoshin1600]

I was first going to place this in the WC forum, but it isn't a problem specific to that. Then, I was going to place it in CMM, but it isn't really specific to any one style..

This is something I see a lot in discussions around here, but not just here, pretty much whenever the subject is broached. It generally reads something like..

If my opponent does X I would just do Y, Z, a spinning G, two Fs and a C..fight over. It's like an imaginary Van Damm movie is playing out in their head and spilling into a post.

It's BS. That's just not how it works in real life. You can prepare yourself to the best of you ability, but you'll never know how you will react to a given situation until you experience said situation. It will rarely, if ever, happen according to any script, and this is especially true in a heated situation on the cusp of, or in the midst of, real combat. At that point the choreographer will be notably absent.

i can agree with you 100%. however many here are disagreeing with you. i believe the reason is because of the "frame of reference". by that i mean your experience and the way you used to train led you to this conclusion. for you its obvious. but for others, they have trained differently and did not experience the same type or style of training as yourself. for them this conclusion was never reached because it just never manifested itself like it did for you.
so for your training yes, if person A does so and so and you try to respond with such and such,, it never looks like that and doesnt turn out that way. in your dojo you were handed a picture of what reality was going to look like and how things will work. but in other styles their reality looks completely different, which again may or may not look anything like reality although they think it will.
Rory Miller said "when ever anyone says to me ...in reality this will happen... i always ask , who's reality?
so in your instance, you found your dojo reality did not match with the street reality but for others maybe it did match due to the type of training they did.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was first going to place this in the WC forum, but it isn't a problem specific to that. Then, I was going to place it in CMM, but it isn't really specific to any one style..

This is something I see a lot in discussions around here, but not just here, pretty much whenever the subject is broached. It generally reads something like..

If my opponent does X I would just do Y, Z, a spinning G, two Fs and a C..fight over. It's like an imaginary Van Damm movie is playing out in their head and spilling into a post.

It's BS. That's just not how it works in real life. You can prepare yourself to the best of you ability, but you'll never know how you will react to a given situation until you experience said situation. It will rarely, if ever, happen according to any script, and this is especially true in a heated situation on the cusp of, or in the midst of, real combat. At that point the choreographer will be notably absent.

The idea is the if you don't let people square off with you, you won't be surprised, and you will actually have time to formulate a plan, if you catch somebody trying.

 

[lklawson]

I was first going to place this in the WC forum, but it isn't a problem specific to that. Then, I was going to place it in CMM, but it isn't really specific to any one style..

This is something I see a lot in discussions around here, but not just here, pretty much whenever the subject is broached. It generally reads something like..

If my opponent does X I would just do Y, Z, a spinning G, two Fs and a C..fight over. It's like an imaginary Van Damm movie is playing out in their head and spilling into a post.

It's BS. That's just not how it works in real life. You can prepare yourself to the best of you ability, but you'll never know how you will react to a given situation until you experience said situation. It will rarely, if ever, happen according to any script, and this is especially true in a heated situation on the cusp of, or in the midst of, real combat. At that point the choreographer will be notably absent.

Actually sports research, combat research (by military and LEO), and related research all indicate that it is honestly closer to how it works than you think.

Well, sort of anyway.

In a lot of ways, it breaks down to Classical Conditioning. Stimulus, response. Trained over many repetitions. Ring the bell, get food. It works with any stimulus and quickest/most effectively with visual stimulus (visual stimuli are identified quicker and responded to quicker in the human brain). When dealing with kinetic responses such as "block," "parry," or "pull the trigger," it works EXACTLY the same way. See the stimulus, do the action. Batting coaches do this when training baseball players. Stimulus, response. The response because "automatic" comparatively quickly. A few hundred repetitions is sometimes all that's required.

And here's a little known fact, "visualization drills" (i.e.: imagination) work nearly as well at invoking the classical conditioning stimulus/response effect as actual live experiences. The human brain has a hard time telling the difference between a well constructed and detailed imagination session and reality.

So your thesis has a small problem. It is a classical conditioning fact, taken advantage of by sports trainers, shooters, LEO, and the military, that when presented with a visual stimuli that the person WILL respond with a programmed technique or series of techniques.

So if this hypothetical person you're discussing spends lots of time imagining a specific attack with a specific response, then he will quite likely respond that way.

The devil in the details, of course, goes back to the specific response. Will the given response actually work in the way that the person training it thinks that it will? Additionally, will he actually have time to see and identify the stimulus in time to respond or is the attacker inside of his OODA loop (most likely, yes)?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[wingchun100]

i can agree with you 100%. however many here are disagreeing with you. i believe the reason is because of the "frame of reference". by that i mean your experience and the way you used to train led you to this conclusion. for you its obvious. but for others, they have trained differently and did not experience the same type or style of training as yourself. for them this conclusion was never reached because it just never manifested itself like it did for you.
so for your training yes, if person A does so and so and you try to respond with such and such,, it never looks like that and doesnt turn out that way. in your dojo you were handed a picture of what reality was going to look like and how things will work. but in other styles their reality looks completely different, which again may or may not look anything like reality although they think it will.
Rory Miller said "when ever anyone says to me ...in reality this will happen... i always ask , who's reality?
so in your instance, you found your dojo reality did not match with the street reality but for others maybe it did match due to the type of training they did.

While many say "Chi Sao is not fighting," it does simulate it in one way: nothing is planned (unless of course you are choosing to do a pre-determined drill because you want to work specific techniques). Therefore, you don't think, "If he does A then I will do B." You just react. If you don't react, you get hit. Then you figure out why. Then you don't let it happen again.

If it does, you figure out why...and so on.

 

[lklawson]

to paraphrase Bruce Lee, we are not machines...we are human beings, fluid and alive

Psychologists (via Classical Conditioning) and the U.S. Military politely disagree with Mr. Lee.

Turns out you CAN program a person to react in certain ways.

This Is Your Brain On War

One excerpt:
...at condition black, the midbrain is in charge, and you’ll do what you’ve been trained to do — no more, no less. You will do what you’ve been programmed to do — no more, no less.”

Thus, if a soldier reaches condition black and lacks adequate training, there’s a good chance he or she will freeze up. A well-trained soldier, on the other hand, will likely take action to neutralize the threat. “Given a clear and present danger, with today’s training almost everyone will shoot,” Grossman says.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And of those situations, how many were something you could have predicted, resulting in a prescripted set of moves that actually happened as you expected?

That's the part that some folks are mis-understanding. Those longer sequences are not (or should not be) about programming a specific sequence for later use. They are about developing movement patterns, transitions, etc. - as well as building the pattern recognition for what presents as an opportunity for the technique. They are unlikely to be used exactly that way in actual combat (nor even in sparring). What will show up, though, is the transitional movement, weight shifts, unification of body and limbs, etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If my opponent does X I would just do Y, Z, a spinning G, two Fs and a C..fight over. It's like an imaginary Van Damm movie is playing out in their head and spilling into a post.

It's BS. That's just not how it works in real life.

1. Kick low, punch high - if you kick your opponent's groin, 90% chance that his face will be open for your punch.
2. Attack right then attack left - if you punch at your opponent's right shoulder, most of the time he will expose his left shoulder to you.
3. If you want push, you pull first - if you pull, 40% of chance that your opponent will resist. also 40% chance that he will yield.
4. Let your opponent to decide whether he want to escape, or resist - if you sweep your opponent's leg, 50% chance that he will lift up his leg. 50% chance that he will turn his shin bone to against you.
- ...

IMO, the more knowledge that you can "predict" your opponent's respond, the better chance that you can win that fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, I know that. Yet, developing correct form and technique isn't enough.

Besides, that is beside the point. Saying 'my' body will respond appropriately' is all well and good until things start happening radically different than they did in the dojo, which itself is a few steps from thinking you can predict any fight, move by move. THAT just never happens, not in my rather extensive experience.

I don't see anything in any of this that implies that a fight is predictable "move by move". We can predict the likelihood of certain reactions at a given point in time (e.g.: a strike or near strike to the face has a high likelihood of causing someone to flinch backwards, unless they are doing something to avoid it), but not where the fight will flow to. The various movements are about programming the body to transitions that match what happens, rather than sculpting what will happen.

 

[wingchun100]

Psychologists (via Classical Conditioning) and the U.S. Military politely disagree with Mr. Lee.

Turns out you CAN program a person to react in certain ways.

This Is Your Brain On War

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

What he meant is what the OP is referring to: the fact that you will most likely never execute a string of techniques the way you do in class in a predetermined drill, with no resistance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not assuming anything. I see "if opponent does X I will do Y then Z" posts here(and everywhere this topic is broached) all the time. It just isn't realistic.

That's odd, because I see not a single post that suggests a sequence flows from a single input.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, that is also what I am saying. But that understanding doesn't come without the knowledge that you can rarely, if ever, predict how any given altercation will happen.

You plan to do Y, Z in response to X but suddenly you are on your back. Ears ringing and vision flashing white because it didn't work. What then?

You're assuming the "you plan to do Y, Z in response to X" part. That's not how the progression works. You train a range of responses to a given input. When the input comes, you react with whatever your brain matches up to it. That produces an outcome (their punch is blocked, or their punch is slipped and you're on their off-side, or you're on your butt and your head is ringing). You then repeat the process - take that input and react with whatever your brain matches to it. There's no sequence of longer prediction - just pattern matching and reaction. If you have space to plan, you're at most trying to elicit a reaction (pressure them backwards, invite them to enter, etc.), but not predicting an exact sequence of events.

 

[Tez3]

What he meant is what the OP is referring to: the fact that you will most likely never execute a string of techniques the way you do in class in a predetermined drill, with no resistance.

That may well be how the OP has trained/been taught but it's doesn't follow that everyone has been taught and trains that way.

 

[lklawson]

You're assuming the "you plan to do Y, Z in response to X" part. That's not how the progression works. You train a range of responses to a given input. When the input comes, you react with whatever your brain matches up to it. That produces an outcome (their punch is blocked, or their punch is slipped and you're on their off-side, or you're on your butt and your head is ringing). You then repeat the process - take that input and react with whatever your brain matches to it. There's no sequence of longer prediction - just pattern matching and reaction. If you have space to plan, you're at most trying to elicit a reaction (pressure them backwards, invite them to enter, etc.), but not predicting an exact sequence of events.

The human brain likes it best (reacts most reliably and quickly) when there are fewer possible responses to a given stimuli. The brain tends to prefer one. The "Robo Droid" is dumb and lacks effective decision making skills but it can act quite decisively and quickly when programmed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If my opponent does X I would just do Y,...

I like to chance that into, "When I attack, if my opponent respond as X, I'll do Y ...".

Let's use "pull" as example. When I pull, if my opponent

- resists, I'll borrow his resistance force, and throw him backward.
- yields, I'll borrow his yielding force, and throw him forward.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The human brain likes it best (reacts most reliably and quickly) when there are fewer possible responses to a given stimuli. The brain tends to prefer one. The "Robo Droid" is dumb and lacks effective decision making skills buit it can act quite decisively and quickly when programmed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Agreed, when dealing with simple stimuli and straight decision-making (choosing between options to click on a specific response, for instance). There are enough variables in physical altercations that we move from straight decision-making to pattern-matching. The brain appears to watch for a pattern, then select the response that matches the pattern. At that point, if we have too many options that match the pattern (and the brain hasn't yet developed a strong preference), it can slow the reaction time. Fortunately, the brain tends to (as you said) find a preference. That preference then becomes the default selection for any pattern it is paired to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

human beings are actually very predictable in their movement patteer.

Agree. If you

- push on your opponent's chest, most of the time he will push back on you.
- punch your opponent, most of the time he will punch you back.
- kick your opponent, even if he doesn't know how to kick, he may still kick back at you just to prove that he can kick too.
- ...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If my opponent does X I would just do Y,

There is nothing wrong with "if you do X, I'll do Y".

To train MA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. With the right key, it takes very little effort to open that lock.

Example of "If you do X, I'll do Y".

If you

- punch my head, I'll kick your belly (my leg is longer than your arm).
- shoot at my leg, I'll push your head down (your body is close to the ground anyway).
- hip throw me, I'll spin with you and drag you down (I borrow your spinning force).
- sweep me, I'll raise my leg, let your leg to pass under, I then sweep back at you (use the same technique to attack you back).
- ...

 

[Buka]

I wonder who's real life we are conjecturing about?

Yes, you can prepare but won't know how you will react to a given situation, but that preparation is training, a plan of options if you will. Options of the response.( Or options of the attack should you decide to move first - given the opportunity.)

It will rarely, if ever, happen according to any script, and this is especially true in a heated situation on the cusp of, or in the midst of, real combat. At that point the choreographer will be notably absent......

I assume, perhaps mistakenly, that we are discussing self defense/fighting as opposed to actual military warfare when we speak of combat. If so, consider - self defense situations are not all that different in the grand scheme of things. Yes, the faces are different, the settings, the particulars, the landscape, the weapons, etc, but it's still just A (or several As) wanting to F up B.
And B not letting that happen.

While there may be no greater teacher than experience, there's a bootload, too many to count, actually, of people who have successfully defended themselves against attacks the very first time they were attacked after having trained.

 

[CB Jones]

Not so much a script...but drilled combinations that become muscle memory upon certain stimuli I think is very realistic and works.

I react to your jab by slipping it and throwing a practiced combination back then react upon your next reaction.

I don't have to think about each technique to slip and punch,punch, and move it is muscle memory

 

[lklawson]

I assume, perhaps mistakenly, that we are discussing self defense/fighting as opposed to actual military warfare when we speak of combat.

Turns out that the human brain can't actually tell the difference between adrenal dump as a result of military combat, self defense, or even high-stress competitive "stage fright."

To the brain, adrenal dump is adrenal dump and it turns off the thinking fore-brain and turns on Robo Droid. Robo Droid just follows his programming. Whatever that programming may be.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk