Texas! Yep, I like it here ...

[ballen0351]

Police cant do anything by ourselves. We need help. Do you know how many theft reports I take from people who 1 leave there doors unlocked 2 don't know the make model or serial numbers of the item stolen 3 wait a week or more to finally get around to calling us. Its hard to solve a case when all you have to go on is someone stole my iPad last week from my car and no in don't know my serial number. Or you go to a murder scene in the summer in a well populated apartment complex and you know 150 people were outside and they all saw what happened but won't tell you anything.

 

[Sukerkin]

Yes, but when you yourself become Judge Jury and Executioner, there is nothing preventing someone else from being the same to you, even on a perceived infraction.

Aye that is why it is problematic.

As I said, our society, at least here in the US, believes in the right to a fair trial, and punishment dished out by the State. Not by the individual. Those are the rules that you are refusing to play by, when you choose to execute someone who refuses to "play by the rules". And that then puts you at risk of the same results that you are choosing to dish out. As justified as you may feel about it, it doesn't work on a societal level.

I would not care to deem it execution if I took someone's life in defence of myself, my family or my property - that's what the justice system aims to do but it cannot do it properly because it cannot act immediately.

and I do not believe there is any data supporting a reduction in capital crimes, even with capital punishment in place.

I concur - what are now capital crimes are those that are also termed, in the main, 'crimes of passion', where the perpetrator had no thought of consequences at the time of their action. What I was talking about was the Rehabilitation-vs-retribution 'schools' when it comes to maintaining law and order. All the evidence suggests that rehabilitation is a rare thing indeed and that most of criminal intent stay that way on an escalating scale until either death or some other force stops them (e.g. getting too old to execute their 'evil'). Only when punishment is disproportionate to the crime (I call it the 'Death for parking offences' axiom) does it deter.

 

[Steve]

No wink wink statement just a fact you better look out for yourself no matter how nice the police detective is and no matter how much you think he's on your side.

And it has nothing to do with gun rights. If the guy walked out and just started shooting people then its already a crime and he should be charged with manslaughter or 2nd deg murder. That's not a gun rights issue. The gun rights issue would be if he wasn't allowed to have guns and these guys broke in and killed him. That's a gun rights issue. Otherwise murder is already illegal

My reaction is essentially that there is a fine distinction between murder and shooting a person who is fleeing a crime scene. That's the gun rights issue here that I see. Not so much gun ownership, but responsibility and accountability.

The legality of the situation seems out of sync with what happened.


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[ballen0351]

My reaction is essentially that there is a fine distinction between murder and shooting a person who is fleeing a crime scene. That's the gun rights issue here that I see. Not so much gun ownership, but responsibility and accountability.

The legality of the situation seems out of sync with what happened.


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Again I don't think its a gun issue. We don't know enough about what happened but if he shot thru the windshield hewas in front of the car so it was moving at hI'm. You can debate why he was in front of the car did he get in front to stop the guy from running and put himself in danger or did the driver try to run him love by aiming the car at him. We dont know.
This is more a self defense issue castle doctrine not a gun ownership issue there has been nothing presented to show this guy shouldn't have had a gun.
I choose to blame the criminals not the victims until more info comes out to change the story.

 

[ballen0351]

If the owner called the police first and the officer showed up and the exact same thing happened only the officer was the shooter would it still be a gun control issue? If not why? What's the difference if a police officer is the shooter or a home owner?

 

[Steve]

Again I don't think its a gun issue. We don't know enough about what happened but if he shot thru the windshield hewas in front of the car so it was moving at hI'm. You can debate why he was in front of the car did he get in front to stop the guy from running and put himself in danger or did the driver try to run him love by aiming the car at him. We dont know.
This is more a self defense issue castle doctrine not a gun ownership issue there has been nothing presented to show this guy shouldn't have had a gun.
I choose to blame the criminals not the victims until more info comes out to change the story.

As you say, we will see what happens, but its possible that they are both criminals and also both victims.


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[DennisBreene]

One of the questions that is presenting itself in the debate regarding self defense and property defense is whether the Individual or the State is more capable of protecting either. We all know that the police aren't going to arrive on time, assuming you even have time to call the police, if your life is in danger. The State can't protect your life and the State probably isn't going to provide your family with justice either. The national average for unsolved murder cases is 65%. In some cities, it rises as high as 90%. With those kinds of odds and when you add in response time for police, it seems pretty clear that self-defense of one's life is completely the responsibility of the individual, no matter what the State says.

Now, much do you think this principle applies to property? I've had several things stolen from me in my life and not once have the police solved the crime. The average clearance rate for crimes in Honolulu is 91%. 95% of these crimes are property offenses. Chances are you are never getting your **** back and no one will EVER catch the criminal. The statistics are overwhelming. The State cannot protect your property. It's up to the individual. The State will also not be able to provide justice to the majority of those who break it's laws.

Taking that into account, you've got two men, possibly armed, and they are stealing your $30,000 truck. If they try to harm you, there is no one to call. If they steal your truck, that might cost you a years income and most likely you will never see the truck again and most likely the two are going to get away with it. If this individual doesn't stand up to these guys, no one will. More controversially, if the individual doesn't deal out justice himself, there most like will be no justice at all. It's just something to think about. We want the State to protect us and provide justice, but it clearly cannot.

That said, I don't think I would shoot someone for stealing my car, but who knows what the situation was. If I surprised two men in the process of stealing my car and I was armed and felt in danger, waiting might let them get the drop on me. Then I'd be dead and my family is probably never going get any justice.

Don't know if I would shoot a fleeing person though...but who knows again. Maybe he's armed and maybe he's going to run you down. There is an overwhelming chance that he's going to get away with your truck and not be caught though.

And he may be pissed at you for blowing away his buddy. Mercy in this case is going to come at the cost of some anxiety for sure.

The bottom line for me is that the STATE cannot provide you with protection or justice. YOU are responsible for protection...and justice...well to say it's rare is an understatement.

I've seen it posted on this site that you should expect to spend $50,000 in legal fees to defend yourself in the courts after you defend yourself on the street. So the tab is now $80,000 assuming that's the end of it.

The minute someone walks on to your property you are potentially a victim. You are certainly a victim when someone starts to break into your property. At that point, the decision becomes "What kind of victim will I be?", though probably not conciously. I don't think I want to be a victim with someone's death on my concience unless I am certain that more was at stake than my property. I acknowledge that "certainty" is a slippery slope and I am also disinclined to pass judgement on another who more aggressively defends their property until I have much more information than is available in this incident. Still, in all, not being overly constrained by the facts does allow more lively theoretical debate and I think that serves to broaden one's perspective.

 

[Tez3]

Can't say I agree, Tez. Kill more of them, less of them to breed.

I can see where you are coming from and while I won't make excuses for criminals I also can't take deaths lightly, we lost another soldier from here yesterday and while a criminals life may not seem worth much, most here who steal cars are young and stupid and can go on to actually turn their lives around many by joining the army and fighting for their country. You'd be surprised how many do.
We have three types of car thief here, the professionals who steal the high end cars or a 'getaway' car who frankly you won't see to shoot, the terrorist type which is thankfully rareish these days and the joy riders. In Northern Ireland for a long time the joyriders were a problem, youths would steal cars to ride through roadblocks as a dare, the chances of them being shot were high (do you remember the Lee Clegg affair?) These are the same young people who have been rioting there for the past six weeks (over 50 police officers have been injured there btw).
There is a vast difference between defending yourself and your family and becoming judge and executioner. We are horrified when in other countries people are shot, beheaded and stoned for crimes wothout the befit of a fair trial, we cannot then do the same ourselves. We as a society have to find a solution to youth crime that happens because there isn't anything else for the youths to do other than spend their time criminally. Simply shooting them isn't a solution for one thing they aren't who you think they are, no family is immune to having a youth out of control but who could be turned round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Stalker

 

[DennisBreene]

I can see where you are coming from and while I won't make excuses for criminals I also can't take deaths lightly, we lost another soldier from here yesterday and while a criminals life may not seem worth much, most here who steal cars are young and stupid and can go on to actually turn their lives around many by joining the army and fighting for their country. You'd be surprised how many do.
We have three types of car thief here, the professionals who steal the high end cars or a 'getaway' car who frankly you won't see to shoot, the terrorist type which is thankfully rareish these days and the joy riders. In Northern Ireland for a long time the joyriders were a problem, youths would steal cars to ride through roadblocks as a dare, the chances of them being shot were high (do you remember the Lee Clegg affair?) These are the same young people who have been rioting there for the past six weeks (over 50 police officers have been injured there btw).
There is a vast difference between defending yourself and your family and becoming judge and executioner. We are horrified when in other countries people are shot, beheaded and stoned for crimes wothout the befit of a fair trial, we cannot then do the same ourselves. We as a society have to find a solution to youth crime that happens because there isn't anything else for the youths to do other than spend their time criminally. Simply shooting them isn't a solution for one thing they aren't who you think they are, no family is immune to having a youth out of control but who could be turned round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Stalker

I always love your insight. And I agree. I also find it horrifying that people are executed in other countries, by reprehensible methods, and it is within the bounds of that countries justice system. Does that constitute a cultural bias, or is it a reaction to what truly goes beyond the pale as it relates to human rights? Probably best left for another time and another thread. My point may reflect a Pollyannish nievity, but I believe our legal system is meant to provide a societal form of justice that supercedes individual vigilanteism. At least in the ideal...

 

[Tez3]

Killing humans isn't such an easy process as many think. On the television and films the characters shrug it off but even when killing someone in self defence it leaves a mark on you. You can know you were right to do it, you can know it was justified but the knowledge you have taken a life even of a scumbag can haunt you in a way you wouldn't have thought it could. It's part of the crime committed that it leaves the victim with scars even if they are small ones. You don't feel guilty but the knowledge you have killed is still a lingering thought that can be troubling.

 

[ballen0351]

Killing humans isn't such an easy process as many think. On the television and films the characters shrug it off but even when killing someone in self defence it leaves a mark on you. You can know you were right to do it, you can know it was justified but the knowledge you have taken a life even of a scumbag can haunt you in a way you wouldn't have thought it could. It's part of the crime committed that it leaves the victim with scars even if they are small ones. You don't feel guilty but the knowledge you have killed is still a lingering thought that can be troubling.

Very true. I killed someone almost 7 years ago now and I still think about it. I still get moody and agitated for no reason. I've been to docs over the years to help with sleeping problems, weight issues. Before I shot him I was 220 pounds worked out and ran every day was on the SWAT team. Since then I blew up to over 310 pounds at one point I've lost a lot of it but I'm still not back where I was. I get frustrated with my kids and wife for no reason snap at them for no reason. I've put my family thru hell sometimes. Thankfully I didn't turn to alcohol or other substances to cope and I'm doing better now then I have been in a long time but when march 29 rolls around It will bother me again for a week or so. I've second guessed my actions from years thinking what if

 

[Sukerkin]

I know it is no comfort, Ballen, and you probably wish sometimes that you did not have such emotions, you are a better man to have those feelings than the man you would be if you did not :sensei rei:.

Despite my strongly worded stance on this issue earlier in this thread, taking a life is something that no-one (sane) would ever wish to do and I hope against all hopes that it is not something I shall ever be called upon to face. With my upbringing having trained me from an early age to be non-violent, I am not sure that I could bring myself to kill, even in self-defence, unless, perhaps, it was to protect my wife or my family.

Of course we can never know how we will act until such moments are upon us.

 

[Blindside]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...one-Oak-man-thwarts-4195158.php#photo-4033381

This reports differs a bit from the original post.

 

[ballen0351]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/lo...one-Oak-man-thwarts-4195158.php#photo-4033381

This reports differs a bit from the original post.

Sounds like he was with in the laws of Texas but I think the laws my be a little too loose with the use of deadly force in my opinion.

 

[Zero]

I have no issue (theoreticaly) with taking a life in defence of oneself or others, or regarding property where such property is a requirement to one's survival/life. To be honest, at times I have not placed that high a value on human life but that said I would rather pay the insurance premium on my car and let the bum drive away in it (and have the insurance company get me a new one) rather than killing someone and taking a life over an expensive piece of tin and rubber.

If the dude really thought his life was in danger from the fleeing perp in the get-away car, then that's different.

Really would have sucked bigtime if you had just pulled over on the curb for a rest and had nothing to do with the guy breaking into the SUV, wake up to some gunshots, reved up to speed off out of danger, shot dead like a dog a longs way from home...