Testing Certain Techniques

[MJS]

Groin kicks, kicks to the knee, a palm heel to the face, a shot to the eyes. These are all moves that are included in pretty much every Martial Art out there. Many times we hear that those techniques are not effective because we can't test them or they haven't been done in that magical spot..the ring.

I often find it interesting when people say those things are not reliable, as I've taken a finger to the eye, accidentally, during training, and its made me stop, my eye tears up, and for that brief moment, I'm hoping that when I open my eye, I can see and that there is no damage.

We've seen a few MMA fights in which the fight is stopped, a point deducted, etc., because of a hit to the groin. Pancrase events use open handed strikes and they appear to be pretty effective.

I thought that we could discuss the ways that you train these moves. Are these moves deemed not effective because we can't go all out?

I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts.

Mike

 

[Flying Crane]

This morning I rolled over in bed. As luck would have it, the corner of my wife's pillow was in exactly the right spot to stick me square in the eye.

The flinch reflex, I guess you would call it, caused me to stop before any real damage was done, but even so, I felt it and it made it clear how dangerous an eye shot is.

No, you can't really test it at all. You can only go thru the motions. But I have full faith that it would work.

 

[shesulsa]

There are basic, damaging strikes that just don't need to be drilled much ... perhaps on a bag or focus pads, but ... groin strikes and stuff, that's pretty simple. Fingers to the eyes ... same ... elbow to the throat, chokes ....

 

[kachi]

I've been wondering about this topic myself for far to long, so I too am hoping someone will be able shed some light. I've always wondered whether a kick to the knee will really do damage or if striking certains points on the body will result in a knock out. But the only way to test these types of techniques is in a fight and unless it's in your work it's not something you can regularly practice.

 

[Blindside]

I have been nailed pretty hard in the groin in sparring (open target for us) and even with the groin protector it dropped me. Sure, I'm not high on PCP or anything, but I've given and received that shot enough times to know that it is effective. (On Tuesday, something was catching because about 4 guys got DROPPED with groin strikes in sparring,) On the other hand, my brother-in-law got hit hard enough that he can't have kids anymore, and he said it didn't hit him for a half an hour.

I've taken a hard shot to the throat in sparring as well (sidekick slid up), that was a fight ender. I absolutely would not have been able to continue no matter how real the situation was. So for me, throat = good target.

I've watched my instructor fight with a concussion, another instructor finished his fight with two broken ribs, I have continued in a fight with an injury that later sent me to the hospital. For me, I've seen enough of the damage that people can deal with to get an idea of what "really works."

Lamont

 

[Flying Crane]

When I was in high school, I used to shoot the bow and arrow in the back yard. I went down to the basement one day to get it out. I carried it up the stairs, and my younger brother was walking up the stairs in front of me. He didn't realize how I was holding the bow. He suddenly turned around for some reason, and took the tip of the bow straight into his eye. It was really freaky the way he started screaming. I thought he might have had some real damage. Granted, he was just a kid, not a big thug on drugs, but the affect was dramatic.

Another time, again while in high school, I was laying on the floor of the living room. My older brother lobbed a tennis ball at me, just for kicks. I didn't see it coming, and it hit me square in the groin. I can't describe the sick, painful feeling that spread thru my guts and had me doubled over.

I've also on occasion hyperextended my knee while practicing my kicks. My knee swelled up for a couple of months, and it was painful to walk.

I think that if we all think back on our lives, we have probably had some pretty convincing examples of how effective these targets can be if struck. Granted, you still need to have a good delivery and the know-how to land a good strike, and that should be practiced. Also, everyone's reaction will be different. But I don't think there is any question how effective these targets can be. We just can't deliberately practice them on each other. Practice the delivery, and trust the effects will be there if you follow thru.

 

[Rook]

Groin kicks, kicks to the knee, a palm heel to the face, a shot to the eyes. These are all moves that are included in pretty much every Martial Art out there. Many times we hear that those techniques are not effective because we can't test them or they haven't been done in that magical spot..the ring.

The knee is tested the same way as everything else.... there is no rule against kicking in any manner to the knee in the sparring I do, in the sparring done by every MT, international style kickboxing, and MMA gym on earth. We can test it. Kicks to the knee area are part of my fighting strategy, and I am kicked in the knee and kick others in the knee weekly (as MT, international kickboxers and MMAists also do).

Palm heels to the face are currently, to my knowledge, legal in ALL MMA competitions. There is no rule prohibiting its use and Bas Rutten used it frequently in the UFC as well as in Pancrase. (Mark Kerr also used the open hand even when not required on occasion.) There is nothing that prevents its use in the place of a closed fist in any MMA gym in the world.

As for the groin, attacks to the groin were legal in all of the early UFCs and are still completely legal without any penalty whatsoever in Finnfight, Combat SAMBO total, and many other tournaments. You will not find it legal in the US anymore (although it was in the past). There is nothing that prevents its use in these tournaments.

The eye attacks are rare to find legal. Even in Combat SAMBO total, you will recieve a fine. Even in the early UFCs, you would have recieved a fine. As a result, it is necessary to turn to no-rules tournaments (the AFCs and early Vale Tudos) as well as no-rules challenges matches (Gracies in Action, Chute-Boxe Challenge, Bullshido challenges, etc). There, we can see what happens when skilled fighters defend against such techniques.

Personally, I have trained pulled strikes to the groin (as in it does not actually make contact) in both sparring and drill format although I question its use. I do not practice eye attacks in any form, although I have in the past (but never with actual contact). I prefer the closed hand to the palm, so I rarely use the palm (I'm more worried about breaking fingers if my palm hits too low than breaking the much stronger handbones if my fist lands improperly).

I often find it interesting when people say those things are not reliable, as I've taken a finger to the eye, accidentally, during training, and its made me stop, my eye tears up, and for that brief moment, I'm hoping that when I open my eye, I can see and that there is no damage.

That has happened to me as well.

We've seen a few MMA fights in which the fight is stopped, a point deducted, etc., because of a hit to the groin.

One of the things I have noticed as that in tournaments in which groin strikes are allowed and fully legal, they are rarely fight enders (the exception being Keith Hackney vs. Joe Son). Fighters chose not to try to push on despite a groin injury because it is to their advantage in terms of points to have the fight temporarily stopped and points awarded or deducted.

Pancrase events use open handed strikes and they appear to be pretty effective.

Agreed. The differences between the open hand and the palm are frequently overstated. Changing open hands to fists or fists to closed hands rarely makes a major difference. Indeed, Bas Rutten and Mark Kerr used the two interchangably and where both were legal.

I thought that we could discuss the ways that you train these moves. Are these moves deemed not effective because we can't go all out?

I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts.

Mike

I see no reason why we can't go all out with palm strikes and knee attacks. The others can be trained to a limited extent in the air, but I think it would be a more productive use of time to concentrate on techniques that can be applied full force.

 

[jdinca]

This morning I rolled over in bed. As luck would have it, the corner of my wife's pillow was in exactly the right spot to stick me square in the eye.

The flinch reflex, I guess you would call it, caused me to stop before any real damage was done, but even so, I felt it and it made it clear how dangerous an eye shot is.

No, you can't really test it at all. You can only go thru the motions. But I have full faith that it would work.

I've had a pillow kick my butt that way too. I'm glad you admitted it first, though.

 

[jdinca]

Ever been poked in the eye, scratched your cornea, been kicked in the groin, taken a baseball in the throat, been kicked in the knee? It doesn't take martial arts experience to understand these strikes can work, if you've had the same type of injuries in other places in your life.

As for training for them, some of them can be pretty hard. I've taken groin shots with a cup on and without. I have a definite preference but even with a cup on, it broke my concentration until I could make sure everybody was okay!

Having a bad knee, I'm not too hip on being kicked there. I'll let a student kick me in the groin, hit me in the head, throat etc., but what they're going to hit is my hand and not the actual body part. I think we can train targeting for these more "delicate" targets quite easily but the actual practice is pretty tough.

 

[still learning]

Hello, In most fights...there are rules, WHY? because they are dangereous and can cause permanent damages or death.

Techniques like eye strikes,pokes are very effective (not neccessary easy tarkets). Most likely will end alot of fights. gouging for sure will let the other person slow down.

Hitting/striking the thoat (cutting the air),will end someone life? or gasping for air. A hit here will keep them from talking back?

Breaking elbows,fingers,knees, ankles,and collar bone will give you some advantage.

Most of these technique needs to be set-up, or is present to you...for them to work.

You will also need to believe these are important tarkets to ending confrontations and fights. (Life and death situtions)

Most arts teach them because they do work, and are very effective...BUT humans can take alot of punishment and hitting with the right force and point is not always easy.

Hitting a homerun does not come everytime up to bat? ...so is striking these areas....practice to be perfect...just maybe if you need to tarket these areas...It will work for you.....

The eyes open or close can be destroy. No matter how big a person is..the eyes still can be attack and damage..even a little person can smash/dig into them!

Just my thoughts here.......Aloha

PS: most people have two eyes and one nose...watch where you put your fingers?

 

[MJS]

I've been wondering about this topic myself for far to long, so I too am hoping someone will be able shed some light. I've always wondered whether a kick to the knee will really do damage or if striking certains points on the body will result in a knock out. But the only way to test these types of techniques is in a fight and unless it's in your work it's not something you can regularly practice.

True, some things will need to be done with protective gear and with scenario drills. IMO, I don't think that any strike should always be looked at as a fight finsiher. Sure, when we strike or kick, we envision not just stopping at the target but instead, going thru the target. Even if the strike does not KO them on the first hit, it does two things. 1) as Flying Crane said, it gives you that startle reflex. If I throw a shot to the eye, and the person brings his hands up and moves his head back, he just opened himself up to other targets. 2) It buys me some time to, as I said in #1, take another target or to get the hell away from the person.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The knee is tested the same way as everything else.... there is no rule against kicking in any manner to the knee in the sparring I do, in the sparring done by every MT, international style kickboxing, and MMA gym on earth. We can test it. Kicks to the knee area are part of my fighting strategy, and I am kicked in the knee and kick others in the knee weekly (as MT, international kickboxers and MMAists also do).

Palm heels to the face are currently, to my knowledge, legal in ALL MMA competitions. There is no rule prohibiting its use and Bas Rutten used it frequently in the UFC as well as in Pancrase. (Mark Kerr also used the open hand even when not required on occasion.) There is nothing that prevents its use in the place of a closed fist in any MMA gym in the world.

As for the groin, attacks to the groin were legal in all of the early UFCs and are still completely legal without any penalty whatsoever in Finnfight, Combat SAMBO total, and many other tournaments. You will not find it legal in the US anymore (although it was in the past). There is nothing that prevents its use in these tournaments.

Agreed.

The eye attacks are rare to find legal. Even in Combat SAMBO total, you will recieve a fine. Even in the early UFCs, you would have recieved a fine. As a result, it is necessary to turn to no-rules tournaments (the AFCs and early Vale Tudos) as well as no-rules challenges matches (Gracies in Action, Chute-Boxe Challenge, Bullshido challenges, etc). There, we can see what happens when skilled fighters defend against such techniques.

Yes, I recall the fines in the early UFC. Personally, I don't know who I'll end up facing. While I do my best to train for that worst case scenario, I don't want to discard a potential technique because someone tried to use it in against Rickson and it didn't work. But, to each his own.

Personally, I have trained pulled strikes to the groin (as in it does not actually make contact) in both sparring and drill format although I question its use. I do not practice eye attacks in any form, although I have in the past (but never with actual contact). I prefer the closed hand to the palm, so I rarely use the palm (I'm more worried about breaking fingers if my palm hits too low than breaking the much stronger handbones if my fist lands improperly).

I'm with you on the palm strikes. I've done some work with the eye shots, with the other person wearing eye protection. There are times when I've had more success with a finger whip, rather than an actual poke.

That has happened to me as well.

I recall one day it was pretty windy outside. A piece of sand blew into my eye and I have to say, that was the most irritating thing that ever happened to my eye. A little piece of sand did that, yet imagine if someone did land a good eye shot with the finger.

One of the things I have noticed as that in tournaments in which groin strikes are allowed and fully legal, they are rarely fight enders (the exception being Keith Hackney vs. Joe Son). Fighters chose not to try to push on despite a groin injury because it is to their advantage in terms of points to have the fight temporarily stopped and points awarded or deducted.

Yeah, I remember that. He landed a bunch of shots. Like I said in a post above, even if it doesn't get me the KO or totally stop the person, it may open them up to other things.

Agreed. The differences between the open hand and the palm are frequently overstated. Changing open hands to fists or fists to closed hands rarely makes a major difference. Indeed, Bas Rutten and Mark Kerr used the two interchangably and where both were legal.



I see no reason why we can't go all out with palm strikes and knee attacks. The others can be trained to a limited extent in the air, but I think it would be a more productive use of time to concentrate on techniques that can be applied full force.

Agreed.

Thanks for commenting.:ultracool

 

[Tez3]

Just remember though if you are going for the eyes you need to lick your fingers first or else the eyeballs stick to them!
Advice we give to students, sometimes it takes a little while for them to laugh!

 

[James Kovacich]

Groin kicks, kicks to the knee, a palm heel to the face, a shot to the eyes. These are all moves that are included in pretty much every Martial Art out there. Many times we hear that those techniques are not effective because we can't test them or they haven't been done in that magical spot..the ring.

I often find it interesting when people say those things are not reliable, as I've taken a finger to the eye, accidentally, during training, and its made me stop, my eye tears up, and for that brief moment, I'm hoping that when I open my eye, I can see and that there is no damage.

We've seen a few MMA fights in which the fight is stopped, a point deducted, etc., because of a hit to the groin. Pancrase events use open handed strikes and they appear to be pretty effective.

I thought that we could discuss the ways that you train these moves. Are these moves deemed not effective because we can't go all out?

I'm interested in hearing everyones thoughts.

Mike

Correct, all hard to train safely. With a parner you can't really practice an eyejab with contact but if you curl your fingers back (4" or so), not making contact or accidently poking your partner, your footwork will be in line to exactly where you need them to be with a real eyejab. Footwork is key. If you extend your finger and don't make contact, then your either not extending your arm enough for training purposes or your feet will be to far back which would leave you streching to make your poke work.

Working with your footwork in mind at all times will help solve a lot of problems as best as we can. Curling your fingers back also lines your bpdy structure for palm strikes. Its almost like practicing two strikes at once but again with my analagy, the palm strike needs a few inches adjustment (forward) in footwork. When inside those two strikes are powerful.

With the palm strike try having your partner where a helmet w/facemask. If the mask is caged, watched your fingers to not tangle and possibly break them. MMA gloves worl well. If the fingers are loose, sew the two small fingers together that will save your pinky from breaking.

If your footwork is "on" for the palm strike, it also is "on" for a lead grab to the throat, strike to the throat or similar. The footwork is key to blending all these strikes to becoming "one" being able to use any of them in any order. If you've ever heard me say I can use just about any of my technique at any time that because if we relate our techniques using footwork as the common denominator, everything is just a slight translation.

 

[zDom]

Regarding knee strikes: I haven't really seen any knee kicks in televised MMA type matches that look particularly dangerous.

I haven't seen any serious attempts at the front of the knee at all. If there is enough bend in the knee, this probably won't be a fight-ender.

I believe, however, that an kick to the front of a knee that is straight or nearly straight could hyperextend or even dislocate it. No evidence to back this up — what do you all think?

As for strikes to the inside or outside of the knee, again: I haven't seen any kicks land that looked hard enough to cause an immediate injury (although they may not feel so good the next day).

I do remember in one of the recent UFCs a kick to the leg just under the hip that knocked the guy down and ended the fight. I'm thinking he was lucky THAT kick didn't catch him at the knee joint.

I also think there is a lot of variety in knee stability. Nearly all of us know someone who has sustained a knee injury that has never quite rehab'd to the point where they have the same athletic ability they had before the injury.

So in conclusion on this subject, it is my opinion that most folks do not kick hard enough and accurately enough to depend on this attack as a "fight ender." But then again, I think there are SOME folks who could inflict an injury that will bother the recipient for the rest of their life.

Regarding palm strikes: when I started martial arts and tested strikes on the heavy bag, my initial preference was for palm strikes: I could generate more power that my wrist could stand up under.

Eventually after some training, I found I preferred a punches — at least on the heavy bag — because I would sink my palm far enough into the bag that it was bending my hand back farther than was comfortable and my wrist had become strong enough to deliver the power without "folding."

Regarding targets in general: Why doesn't anybody ever talk about striking the solar plexus? I find striking this target is extremely effective in hard/full contact sparring.

Those with not enough abdominal training are pretty much done for when you hit it. Those with enough ab training may be able to stay in the fight, but they generally start to open up their head for shots once you've rocked this target.

 

[Bigshadow]

This morning I rolled over in bed. As luck would have it, the corner of my wife's pillow was in exactly the right spot to stick me square in the eye.

The flinch reflex, I guess you would call it, caused me to stop before any real damage was done, but even so, I felt it and it made it clear how dangerous an eye shot is.

No, you can't really test it at all. You can only go thru the motions. But I have full faith that it would work.

Along the same lines, one can know something works because the biomechanics work. It doesn't always need to be tested, to be true and effective. Likewise, just because something is effective doesn't mean everyone can do it effectively.

 

[Rook]

Along the same lines, one can know something works because the biomechanics work. It doesn't always need to be tested, to be true and effective. Likewise, just because something is effective doesn't mean everyone can do it effectively.

Well, I personally want to see a move used consistantly against competent opponents in match that I can see convincing proof of before I start to train it.

Lots of stuff works against a compliant opponent that holds up poorly under pressure. Knowing the anatomical weakpoints for a jointlock, and actually being able to intercept an attack and apply it are two very different things.

 

[Andrew Green]

Along the same lines, one can know something works because the biomechanics work. It doesn't always need to be tested, to be true and effective. Likewise, just because something is effective doesn't mean everyone can do it effectively.

Just be careful about where you get your into on biomechanics from. I imagine a good percentage of the people here have come across the "Nose bone through the brain" or the "Knees break under x pounds of pressure, so even a light kick will destroy it" not to mention all the "biomechanical" stuff involving meridians and nerve centers and chi.

Eye gouges, yes, we know they work, we've all been hit lightly, we've seen pro fighter go down for a minute after accidental ones. Same for groin strikes.

And, if you really feel the need, slow down a little, slap on some safety goggles and see how often and reliably you can hit the target.

 

[Bigshadow]

Knowing the anatomical weakpoints for a jointlock, and actually being able to intercept an attack and apply it are two very different things.

That is indeed true! So what does this mean?

Does this mean that whatever it is ineffective, because I cannot do it? Or does it mean that I don't know how to make it work?

 

[Bigshadow]

Just be careful about where you get your into on biomechanics from. I imagine a good percentage of the people here have come across the "Nose bone through the brain" or the "Knees break under x pounds of pressure, so even a light kick will destroy it" not to mention all the "biomechanical" stuff involving meridians and nerve centers and chi.

Eye gouges, yes, we know they work, we've all been hit lightly, we've seen pro fighter go down for a minute after accidental ones. Same for groin strikes.

And, if you really feel the need, slow down a little, slap on some safety goggles and see how often and reliably you can hit the target.

I am speaking about some rather realistic approaches here, not ki strikes and groin strikes.

Just like I don't have to watch someone fall from 2,000 foot cliff without a chute to know it is likely they are going to die. Because I know that there are some fundamental principles working against the person, such as elevation above ground, gravity, acceleration to terminal velocity, and impact speed. If I have an good understanding of these things, it is no surprise that I can conclude that technique will be quite effective in killing the person falling.

Same goes for techniques.

Don't confuse this with performing it. One can understand the effectiveness of something, yet not be able to demonstrate it themselves at that time, but with training, they can.