Guns Guns Guns

[Inferno]

I'm relatively new here and I've got a lot of reading to do to bring me up to speed and catch the swing of things here but I've seen a reoccuring Motif. It seems that every thread I read, there is an overwhelming majority of users who talk about them carrying around several firearms from .357 Magnums to glocks. I find this troubling and this could be because I reside in Canada.

Is it normal for Americans to "pack heat" when they go out? Or is this forum just packed with people who fear for their safety more so than the general public and feel the need?

I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have, I apologize. I just find this disturbing considering when I think Martial Arts I think about strengthing your mind and body for self defense and enlightenment not polishing my artilery.

Cheers.

 

[CoryKS]

I'd say it's probably not common for Americans to "pack heat", though it's hard to say since the weapons are concealed. A martial arts forum is going to be packed with people who put more than the usual thought into self-defense, and guns are one aspect of that.

 

[shesulsa]

I'm relatively new here and I've got a lot of reading to do to bring me up to speed and catch the swing of things here but I've seen a reoccuring Motif. It seems that every thread I read, there is an overwhelming majority of users who talk about them carrying around several firearms from .357 Magnums to glocks. I find this troubling and this could be because I reside in Canada.

Is it normal for Americans to "pack heat" when they go out? Or is this forum just packed with people who fear for their safety more so than the general public and feel the need?

I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have, I apologize. I just find this disturbing considering when I think Martial Arts I think about strengthing your mind and body for self defense and enlightenment not polishing my artilery.

Cheers.

I used to be rather anti-weapon too.

But the bad guys are intent on using whatever they have and if they don't have it, they make it. I now believe in being able to make use of whatever tool you have available to you.

Use of natural weapons came about because people were forced to relinquish their actual weapons. You would call your hands, feet, elbows, knees, shins, shoulders all weapons. Just about anything can be used as a weapon.

Let me ask you: if you disarm someone, what are you going to do with that weapon? What if there are armed others? If you have no other choice than to use a gun or knife, are you going to lie down and meet your maker? And do you think this devalues your life in any way?

 

[Grenadier]

I'm relatively new here and I've got a lot of reading to do to bring me up to speed and catch the swing of things here but I've seen a reoccuring Motif. It seems that every thread I read, there is an overwhelming majority of users who talk about them carrying around several firearms from .357 Magnums to glocks. I find this troubling and this could be because I reside in Canada.

Is it normal for Americans to "pack heat" when they go out? Or is this forum just packed with people who fear for their safety more so than the general public and feel the need?

People who lawfully own handguns, and especially those who have concealed weapons permits, in the USA, have no felonies on their records. They also do not have the more serious misdemeanor offenses on their records, and have gone through background checks to confirm this. This is done every time someone goes to purchase a firearm from a dealer, in that the ATF4473 form must be filled out, and that background checks are conducted on the spot. Lying on this form is a felony, and can result in you spending time in a federal prison.

If anything, I would lay a good amount of money, that if you took a group of law-abiding firearms owners, and compared them to a group of non-firearms owners, you'll have a much, much, lower rate of criminal activity amongst the law-abiding firearms owners.

I don't worry about law-abiding Americans (or anyone who is law-abiding) carrying concealed firearms, as long as they keep them concealed, and choose to use such firearms in a lawful manner.

The people that everyone should be worried about are the criminals, not the law-abiding firearms owners. Criminals do not obey the laws, and will obtain their firearms unlawfully, whether it's by stealing, black market (very easy to do, by the way), etc.

Trying to restrict the law-abiding folks has no effect on the activities of criminals, and resources are better spent towards helping law enforcement take criminals off the street, since it's the criminals who make the conscious decision to commit crimes, not some inanimate object.

 

[KenpoTex]

well...

First of all, this is the "Self-defense" board. The idea here, as I understand it, is to discuss realistic, workable options for personal protection. This being the case, the discussion of weapons, particularly firearms, is going to be prevalent among those of us who don't look at the problem through "rose colored glasses." Let's face it, until someone comes up with a practical laser-blaster, a firearm is the most effective tool for stopping a threat.
As SheSulsa pointed out, empty-hand/natural-weapons are used because one does not or cannot have a weapon readily available. When faced with a deadly threat it would be foolish to limit yourself to empty-hand methods if you have a weapon that you can deploy.

I personally have issues with the idea that the use of firearms is somehow at odds with the practice of martial-arts. The last time I checked, "martial" was defined as "warlike" or "suitable or associated with war." Given those definitions, I don't see how one could say that weapons, particularly firearms, are beyond the scope of the martial-arts. Really, I feel that many "martial-artists" place too much value on the "art" and not enough on the "martial." In other words, they get so caught up in the internal aspects of the training that they forget that what they are learning was originally designed with the goal of neutralizing one's enemy as efficiently as possible. It makes no difference whether that "enemy" is a soldier on a battlefield, or some meth-head in a poorly lit parking lot.

 

[Tarot]

I don't fear for my safety, I look at it as being prepared as much as possible for what might come my way. Do I pack and own a gun? No, but I'm hoping that will change very soon.

*Fingers crossed I get a nice surprise for my birthday*

It will be awhile before I own one of my own, but I am looking forward to training and learning how to use one. Why? I don't ever want to be in a situation where a gun comes into play, I'm able to get control of it only to find myself unable to use it because I don't know how. IMO, this would be very bad.

KenpoTex is spot on in his reply.

 

[Lisa]

I'm relatively new here and I've got a lot of reading to do to bring me up to speed and catch the swing of things here but I've seen a reoccuring Motif. It seems that every thread I read, there is an overwhelming majority of users who talk about them carrying around several firearms from .357 Magnums to glocks. I find this troubling and this could be because I reside in Canada.

Is it normal for Americans to "pack heat" when they go out? Or is this forum just packed with people who fear for their safety more so than the general public and feel the need?

I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have, I apologize. I just find this disturbing considering when I think Martial Arts I think about strengthing your mind and body for self defense and enlightenment not polishing my artilery.

Cheers.

Inferno,

First off, welcome to MT. I am glad you have joined us.

I do understand your comments and can relate to them being Canadian myself and not being "allowed" to carry a concealed weapons. The whole idea of it, to us, is so foreign it is hard for us to grasp it. However, please don't take what is written in the threads out of context. The people (or a majority of them) that talk about "packing heat" do so because it is part of their everyday lives. Beit it that they are part of the military, LEO, or private personal protection of others. I think you are overwhelmed because it is so foreign to you. Hang around a bit, get to know the members of this community and you will soon have a better understanding of the "whole" picture.

 

[Drac]

when I think Martial Arts I think about strengthing your mind and body for self defense and enlightenment not polishing my artilery.

Cheers.

Welcome to MT...I remember when I discoverd one of my Sensei's always packed..When I asked him why he said "I know karate, I no crazy"...

 

[Blindside]

I do not mean to offend anyone and if I have, I apologize. I just find this disturbing considering when I think Martial Arts I think about strengthing your mind and body for self defense and enlightenment not polishing my artilery.

I know of at least five "grandmasters" of various arts that carry regularly, these are men with 40+ years in the arts. Guns are simply an option, one that requires just as much training and dedication as learning how to punch, kick, and throw. Take a look back into the histories of whatever art you would like, and you will find that when people were truly serious about self-protection they picked up a weapon, preferably the best weapon they could get their hands on. In the modern world, that means firearms.

Lamont

 

[wade]

After much thought and consideration of all that has been said on this subject in this thread my only response is "What they said". Thank you.

 

[tellner]

Let's start out with something I said to another Canadian in another thread...

Not many people carry a knife or gun for self defense. And most of the ones who do just wind up lugging it around for their whole lives without ever using it. Even the majority of police officers never fire a shot except on the range. But there are bad people out there. And there are dangerous situations. A knife or gun is only useful in a very few circumstances. When it is, nothing else will do. And the smaller, weaker or less physically fit you are the worse it is. Something which might not be a deadly force situation for you or me is for a 50 kilo woman.

Think of one of these tools as a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm. It's a highly specialized piece of safety equipment useful for only one or two things. You will probably never need one. It sits there and takes up space. It needs maintenance. But that one time makes it all worthwhile. Through combinations of bad luck and poor planning I've had that "one time" more than once. So I carry a pistol from time to time. And I've grown so used to having a knife around since I was thirteen or fourteen that I feel undressed without one.

I used to be anti-weapon, particularly anti-gun. Knives were strictly tools. Martial arts were about using your unaugmented body. Weapons were for people who didn't train, a reflection on one's skill and character.

Things changed, obviously.

First, I started to learn a little about the history of martial arts and found that throughout history almost all of them taught the empty hand as a backup. If you had a weapon, you used it because it would be stupid not to. The emphasis on non-weapons martial arts was largely a post-WWII thing. Judo had to be made less scary. Aikido went strongly in its current direction. "China Hand" became "Empty Hand" and so on.

Then I actually got exposed to firearms. I'd never handled or fired one before. My first Silat teacher, last of the real Colorado hillbillies, took me shooting and taught basic firearm safety. As these things became less mysterious I was able to look at them a bit more objectively. About that time Oregon started allowing an Oregon CCW as another form of ID and allowing CCW holders to bypass the fifteen day waiting period to buy a gun. I didn't have any guns, but damned if I was going to wait around for something that someone with a card and a training class could walk in and pick up. I also didn't have a car and had let the driver's license lapse.

I got a CCW and bought an old (but safe!) revolver from a friend who was very broke. I carried it for a while for educational purposes and learned a few interesting things. Then I moved to an area that I could afford, which is to say a place where having that pistol turned out to be a great comfort once or twice. Over the years I've also found that people who are trying to get into my house may not understand "Get the **** off my porch!" in English. But the sound of a 1911 cycling is something they can understand perfectly.

Do I still train the empty hand portions of my martial arts? Of course. Would they be my first choice to defend myself or family against a life-threatening attack? No. Will they be when I am 70? Hell, no. If we're lucky enough to conceive this time would I want my wife to get in a fist fight while six months pregnant and waddling around or would I rather she defend herself and the baby a little more effectively? It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure that one out.

Since then I've found that all but one of my martial arts teachers also owned firearms and carried them where it was legal.

The teacher of my first Silat teacher put it this way: "I don't live in a tree. I don't eat with my fingers. Why would I fight with them?"

 

[Cirdan]

Is learning how to handle a firearm a martial art? Short awnser: Definately!

Do I feel he need to carry a gun on the streets? Short awnser: Definately not!

Some interesting reading: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/pdf/litreviewfirearmdeaths.pdf

 

[Inferno]

Let me ask you: if you disarm someone, what are you going to do with that weapon? What if there are armed others? If you have no other choice than to use a gun or knife, are you going to lie down and meet your maker? And do you think this devalues your life in any way?

Well if there are a group of individuals with guns all against me with the intent of killing me, the only option I feel I'd even have was to sue one as a human shield or possibly a hostage and back away and get out of there. If they really wanted to kill me though they'd just fire before I can even get close, carrying a gun myself (which would be illegal) would still probably not help me because again, they could fire before they even get close and in the event that they try to mug me, with lets say four guns pointing at me, reaching for a gun is pretty dumb considering they just want my wallet, it's not worth it not to mention I'd be locked up for having a weapon and would spend time in jail for it.

Inferno,

First off, welcome to MT. I am glad you have joined us.

I do understand your comments and can relate to them being Canadian myself and not being "allowed" to carry a concealed weapons. The whole idea of it, to us, is so foreign it is hard for us to grasp it. However, please don't take what is written in the threads out of context. The people (or a majority of them) that talk about "packing heat" do so because it is part of their everyday lives. Beit it that they are part of the military, LEO, or private personal protection of others. I think you are overwhelmed because it is so foreign to you. Hang around a bit, get to know the members of this community and you will soon have a better understanding of the "whole" picture.

Thank you very much. I think I am just weirded out because outrunning a psycho in a car trying to run me over is more likely than coming across someone with a gun, legal or otherwise. I'd almost bet that I have a better chance of a helicopter or hot air balloon landing and having criminals jump out at me. This must just be a Canadian thing and like I said I mean no disrespect, I personally just don't understand.

I think that hand-to-hand and knife disarms are the most likely event in my surroundings and the whole armed citizenry is an American thing.

 

[Carol]

Thank you very much. I think I am just weirded out because outrunning a psycho in a car trying to run me over is more likely than coming across someone with a gun, legal or otherwise. I'd almost bet that I have a better chance of a helicopter or hot air balloon landing and having criminals jump out at me. This must just be a Canadian thing and like I said I mean no disrespect, I personally just don't understand.

I think that hand-to-hand and knife disarms are the most likely event in my surroundings and the whole armed citizenry is an American thing.

In terms of reasons...I have a job doing what I love to do, which is a senior engineering position in a 24x7x365 industry. There is a lot of crap that goes on after Midnight that people working "normal" business hours don't see because they are (rightfully) home in bed.

I don't think a lot of Americans carry concealed. Granted, my state is not gun friendly, but the Salem (MA) News reported that between 2 and 3 percent of the town where I live as well as the bordering town that I live near have carry permits. That isn't a lot of people.

 

[tellner]

On the other hand, the NYPD estimates that 7% of all adults in the city are carrying, almost all of them illegally.

 

[Blindside]

I think that hand-to-hand and knife disarms are the most likely event in my surroundings and the whole armed citizenry is an American thing.

Guns aren't just for gun on gun, they are for any deadly force situation, this can include knife, club, baseball bat, multiple attackers, or significant size disparity. Does it still sound far fetched?

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

On the other hand, the NYPD estimates that 7% of all adults in the city are carrying, almost all of them illegally.

I seem to recall that in South Dakota 7% are LICENSED to carry, at the time it was the highest rate in the nation.

Lamont

 

[Inferno]

Guns aren't just for gun on gun, they are for any deadly force situation, this can include knife, club, baseball bat, multiple attackers, or significant size disparity. Does it still sound far fetched?

Lamont

Guns aren't an option for me or anyone but LE and the very rare criminal in my country. Running shoes,a cool head, some skills (both verbal and defensive) will keep the majority of the public safe in my opinion.

I don't get me wrong either, I like marksmanship both with firearms and archery but the thought of knowing that Americans believe guns are the answer to being safe sort of scares me. If people didn't have guns to carry around, the chance of you coming into contact with an attacker is highly reduced, look at Canada, Japan, the UK as some examples. More guns, means more criminals with guns.

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, I just think arming yourself might be adding to the problem as opposed to fixing the problem. But on the flip side, I can understand that one can feel protected with guns, if I had a handgun I'd feel empowered and less scared, it's a huge physiological boost in morale.

I feel like I've opened a can of worms, but I guess I asked for it bringing up the 2nd Amendment with armed Americans .

 

[Blindside]

I'm not trying to rain on anyones parade, I just think arming yourself might be adding to the problem as opposed to fixing the problem. But on the flip side, I can understand that one can feel protected with guns, if I had a handgun I'd feel empowered and less scared, it's a huge physiological boost in morale.

I feel like I've opened a can of worms, but I guess I asked for it bringing up the 2nd Amendment with armed Americans .

You are lucky this isn't a gun board, the wrath of God would be descending right about now.

I will say, that just because we carry, we don't also learn all the skills you already mentioned.

 

[Carol]

Be careful about assumptions. Not everyone that is not ignorant about guns is an armed American.

There are many other factors that go in to crime statistics as well. Colder cities tend to have less crime than warmer cities. Cities with greater ethnic diversity often have more crime than cities with less ethnic diversity. Areas where the populace is more educated and has higher socioeconomic strata enjoy less crime than areas where the populace is less educated and is of lower socioeconomic strata. That gets in to a lot of very touchy issues that are over and beyond the use of guns.

There is also a difference in mentality. Some people think if a woman is in an abusive relationship, it is her fault for getting beat up because she didn't leave the guy. Others think that a guy that pulls in to a gas station at 3am and faces an attacker was asking for it and therefore is his own fault. Still others think that if they don't see something that it's not their problem. Personally, I don't subscribe to these mentalities.

Martial Arts that "work" on the street are a good thing. However, I don't know that many 6 feet tall 200 pound guys that are effective at defending themselves against 7' 2" 400 pound men in a way that always works on the street. That may sound like a ridiculous theory but if women face an attacker, it can easily be someone 20% taller than they are and twice their weight. Martial Arts schools in general do not have a great track record at retaining women.

Guns may not be one's cup of tea. I don't think anyone should be forced in to owning or using a weapon that they do not want to use. However, I prefer that the prosecution of people is focused on people that break the law, not on those that abide by it.