Learning to counter the counter

[Lisa]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

 

[Blindside]

In kali we do alot of counter-for-counter drills. At first a technique (for lack of a better word) is taught, and then you are taught the counter to it, and how to take advantage of the attackers position, with a return technique of your own, and so on. At first these drills are slow, and then they move quite quickly. If you fail to pull off your counter, the drill ends when one side successfully completes a technique. Drills are there to get a lot of repetitions in quickly, and there are alot of these drills teaching different philosiphies and counters. In the kali that I study there are probably around 10 main drills, and eventually all the drills become one as you free flow. Tuhon Gaje describes this as "learn the drill, drill the drill, forget the drill." The point is not the drill but the skills you derive from it.

Lamont

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Great thread Lisa!

Every time you learn a technique you should be thinking about how you would counter that technique and then take it a step further and think how that would be countered. Remy Presas of Modern Arnis was great at this and most quality martial systems address this at multiple points in training. Hatsumi Soke of the Bujinkan talks about this as well and it permeates the training. Flow, Nagare, etc, having the ability to move freely on without a fixed perspective so that you can counter a technique is very, very important. Just my 02.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

Cuong Nhu teaches all of the abouve. For newbys, people who cann't be hit (there is a girl in our class who has seizures), and for material that is potentialy dangerous (like eyes gouges) we do one step. We also do drills (though they aren't required at any point). They're mostly borrowed from Wing Chun and Filipino styles. We also do sparring, and it's some of the most realistic you'll see. We allow hand strikes to the head, punches to the face, sweeps, leg and arm catches, joint locks, throws (to a degree), and groin shots. We teach it, so why not allow it?
And it's quite common for the upper ranks to do mostly one or two moves in free sparring. The reason is to drill it into there head.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

I would say it is best from my experience to let the student get the first technqiue, you could show them the counter so they know there is one, but train the technique until they understand it and can use it. Then show/teach them the counter and work that as well. This gives them a chance to practice the technique and then you can counter to continue the flow and then do it to them and allow them to counter to continue the flow of techniques. Some arts do this through drills or prearranged sets, others do it in a semi-sparring or sparring manner for the practice. This should be done at slow speeds so people can work on timing and the technique, before hte speed picks up.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Xingyi it is the whole idea behind Xingyiquan 5 elements. You can classify every attack into one of those elements and counter and classify the counter and then counter and so on and so on.

Attack with wood respond with metal,
Wood then can changes to fire to counter metal,
metal change to water to counter fire,
Fire changes to earth to counter water
Water changes to wood to counter earth
Earth changes to metal to counter wood
And you are back at the beginning

piquan – splitting fist – metal
zuanquan – drilling fist – water
bengquan –smashing fist – wood
paoquan – pounding fist – fire
hengquan – crossing fist - earth

 

[Lisa]

I would say it is best from my experience to let the student get the first technqiue, you could show them the counter so they know there is one, but train the technique until they understand it and can use it. Then show/teach them the counter and work that as well. This gives them a chance to practice the technique and then you can counter to continue the flow and then do it to them and allow them to counter to continue the flow of techniques. Some arts do this through drills or prearranged sets, others do it in a semi-sparring or sparring manner for the practice. This should be done at slow speeds so people can work on timing and the technique, before hte speed picks up.

Good Points Rich! I think that basics are important but it is equally important to teach them to put them all together and to expect the unexpected.

 

[MJS]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

The base technique is usually taught first. Over time, counters will be introduced. We work these in Arnis, BJJ and Kenpo. These things can be incorporated into drills, which will help familiarize the student with how flow from one move to the next.

 

[Bigshadow]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

We do. Our instructor will do that to those of us that have more experience, he will attack, I counter, he counters and it turns into a mini session of randori. It is alot of fun. I find it easier to counter if I am tori. Being uke it becomes harder to counter if they are doing things right.

 

[Trent]

I often here many of our members talking about realistic drills with weapons. Disarming someone with a knife or a gun or whatever they happen to have to attack you with.

As we all know there is always a counter to someones counter and I was wondering if in your training you learn how to counter someones defensive or offensive counter with another one.

Do you practice one step at a time or is there "sparring" (for lack of a better word) involved that allows you to practice countering a defensive or offense move until the threat has been eliminated? And how important do you believe this to be?

There are indeed counters to counters, or recounters (and more). Yes, we practice in steps as part of the learning process; yes, we spar as part of the learning process. It's very important to do both in order to learn the skill effectively.