Teen Black Belt Busted After Near-Deadly Kick

[elder999]

I think one thing that was said and I know this is opening the can of worms that has kicked off arguments here before....is that this lad didn't act like a black belt. My and my instructor's belief as well as a lot of people I know is that black belts aren't for children and this lad is still a child.

I earned shodan grades in kyokushin and tae kwon do at 16.

I was hardly a child at 16. I could drive. Was on my way to earning a college degree that year. Was pretty much emancipated from my parents. Was having sex, working, drinking, and making a variety of adult decisions. In spite of all that, I was hardly an adult-and, while I may have been exceptional in some ways, I was pretty typical in lots of others-and I wasn't the only 16 year old black belt in 1976; there were quite a few of us...... in any case, I knew that my actions had consequences.


050

Black belts are for adults who understand the point of being awarded/given/earning a black belt.

Maybe. How about black belts are for those who understand, etc.? I mean, I know a lot of adults at 50 who still wouldn't understand.Conversely, while I'm not totally against the idea of a "junior" black belt, I've also known quite a few teenagers who had the maturity and dedication to attain shodan.

. As they say 'it's complicated'. Punish the lad for what he did of course but also he must be made to understand that losing isn't the end of the world.

It's too late for that, I'm afraid......this was criminal behavior, and will be treated as such. Odds are good the kid will be charged as an adult, in adult court, facing adult consequences for his actions.

 

[Tez3]

You certainly wouldn't be driving here at 16, nor drinking legally. School leaving age here isn't till 16 at the earliest quite often it's 18, when you can drink, smoke,vote, drive, marry and die for your country ( you can join the forces at 17 but you don't go to a warzone until after you are 18)
If this lad didn't know there would be consquences who's fault is that? Or perhaps the consquences of losing were greater than those of his action in kicking the other lad? The association to which he and his instructor belongs to should be having a good look to see whether this is an isolated incident or all the students from there have the idea they are entitled to win. It may be that this lad is just a complete yob but it also maybe that he's the product of his school and their teaching. Not sure whether it was this thread or the other one dealing with this incident but it was asked what the association was going to do about it, some thought nothing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have to agree with Tez3 on this. Striking a child to force them to obey is a form of child abuse. It sends mixed messages and is probably responsible for all kinds of mental trauma that can play its way out in many ways.

PROVE IT.

I don't spank my children and have always been able to teach them proper behavior.

Good for you. I don't doubt you. You will note that I do not insist that parents strike their children as a form of discipline, but those parents who do not for some reason seem to think they have the right to tell others what to do with their own children. "Probably responsible?" In your mind, perhaps. In reality, no. But that 'probably' gives liberals the right, in their own minds, to tell others how to live. It's an old story. My way is better, therefore I get to tell you how to live.

 

[punisher73]

back to the original topic.

Even though there isn't a SPECIFIC law in most states that state that someone with training is a deadly weapon. It IS used as a mitigating factor and will bump up the charges very quickly.

I sat in on a domestic violence case with an inmate. He punched his girlfriend and broke her eye socket. The charges were bumped up from the normal injury because he was a kickboxer. The prosecutor looks at that type of training on a two prong approach. 1) You have formal training and should know better and 2) because you have formal training you are more capable of inflicting serious injury.

Michigan also has the "shod foot" law which makes it a felony as well.

Off topic as to spanking children. Kids DON'T have the capability of understanding reason at a young age, they only understand pleasure/pain. A swat on the butt will correct behavior much better than a stern talking to, because they DON'T understand what they did.

 

[punisher73]

Also, saying that society as a whole failed this young man, I feel, is a load of poo. That's part of the problem right there. We shift the blame from the wrongdoer and their individual responsibility for their act and place it on everyone else that we didn't teach them better. Guess what? Unless, you literally have some crossed wires in your brain every kid after kindergarten knows it is wrong to go up and punch/kick Johnny because you are mad. How much time do we have to spend on this topic? I don't know his instructor, but I'm guessing his instructor has probably covered that same topic as well.

As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse to water...". If you teach these lessons and they aren't absorbed the onus is on the wrong doer. PERIOD and they take full blame and responsibility for their actions. If we shift that responsibility it takes away from the wrongdoer as if they to are a victim in all of this. They aren't, they are the wrongdoer and they need to own up for their mistakes. You see we ALL have freewill and ALL make choices in life.

 

[Tez3]

If, and that's the nub of the question, others are to blame for this it will be those who are much closer to the teenager than 'society' in general. The parents and the instructors could be looked at for sharing the blame but it is generally accepted that in competitive sports one should be a good sport in public about losing. You can go off and bash your head off a wall or swear like a trooper in private but in public it is the done thing to be gracious in defeat. For most the feelings losing bring only last a little while, with most people vowing to come back better next time or even giving up if they are really bad lol, no one likes losing even good sports don't but it's part of life if you are in a competitive sport.
I find it interesting that the teenager kicked the competitor who defeated him rather than judges or refs, must admit I'd like to know who he blamed and why for his defeat.

 

[elder999]

You certainly wouldn't be driving here at 16, nor drinking legally.

Well, here he almost certainly would be driving at 16-in some states as young as 14. Nowhere would he be drinking legally, and, when I was 16, I wasn't drinking legally either-but I knew it, and chose to face the consequences, which might have been substantial had I been caught, or stupid enough to drink and drive. The drinking age was 18 at the time, though, and I had a fake ID that I rarely had to use. As for leaving school, I was the exception, not the rule, but such things aren't ruled by age as much here, I think.

If this lad didn't know there would be consquences who's fault is that?

I've been saying all along: his parents and his teachers.

Or perhaps the consquences of losing were greater than those of his action in kicking the other lad?

In his mind perhaps.

The association to which he and his instructor belongs to should be having a good look to see whether this is an isolated incident or all the students from there have the idea they are entitled to win.

Maybe. The kids going to court, though, and should go to jail. If I kicked everyone in the face that made me angry or disappointed me, I'd be in jail.

It may be that this lad is just a complete yob but it also maybe that he's the product of his school and their teaching.

Quite right-he's a "complete yob," and the product of his school and their (lack of) teaching.

And he should go to jail.

Not sure whether it was this thread or the other one dealing with this incident but it was asked what the association was going to do about it, some thought nothing.

Besides kicking him out-and, in a just world, they won't really have to do that, because he's going to jail- what should they do?

 

[Tez3]

No idea what his association should do, it's not mine, I was just curious what people thought it should do! there's two threads on this incident going at the same time, I don't know if they can be merged or not though.
Me, I love knowing the why's of people's actions, as I said I'd love to know why he kicked the competitor and why he thought he should, I'd like to know the pressures if any on him to win etc etc. I really like understanding people's motives and reasons for their actions, just saying he's a yob isn't enough for me, I like to delve into minds lol!

 

[ATACX GYM]

No. It lends credence to the idea of a prosecutor charging heavy hoping for a plea deal. As described in several places, under Virginia law, the most I'd expect would be malicious wounding. Arguments that the kick "could" have been fatal are sketchy. I'd like to hear what the doctor really said would have been the mechanism of death; I sure hope it wasn't "drive the nose bone into the brain" as one article listed.

I couldn't agree with you more.The charge,the analriffic politics,the public ignorance regarding the lethality of kicks...all reek to high Heaven and the lowest bowels of Hell with extreme stupidity. I swear this prosecutor is beyond extremely stupid and callously grandstanding using the ridiculous childishness of a kid who made a remarkably stupid decision...this prosecutor guy went and had a long loud dufus-gasm in public.The kid deserves jail time,but we're not looking at a kid who's a graduate from the OZUNU CLAN from NINJA ASSASSIN the movie.We're looking at a kid who needs 3-6 months in jail and working on his temper.I also think that it's more than premature to start making assumptions and generalizations about his teacher and/or parents...some kids have solid teachers and parents,and they WILL be good kids in the future but right now? They have anger problems and they need help coping.They need to be punished for their excesses,but they also need help with permanently removing the root of their problem...or else they'll just get better at NOT GETTING CAUGHT.

I teach and have taught a decent amount of gang members.These kids have anger problems for the most part.They haven't done good things and by the time they come to me? They're in need a swift boot in the behind and iron discipline.It's not unheard of for me to put a physical exclamation on my point if these kids in any way defy my orders or don't jump to it fast enough or perform well enough when I give them the order.The results I get is very much like the results that old skool military training bequeathes to the formerly wayward: greater discipline,much stronger character and self control,real world confidence and oftentimes a genuine love for martial arts sports etc. I have a 86% success rate regarding sharp academic performance within the first months of training with me (my kids go from "failing" to generally 2.0+ before their academic quarter and semester is over).They frequently break ties with their gang or are no longer active in "retaliation revenge and git back" or "puttin in work for the hood"...but their lethality keeps their rep amongst their homies high and they rarely suffer from social backlash in their gang because they're now moving on to better things and most guys respect and appreciate that.

If I just handed out severe *** whompification on these kids for their transgressions and sent them to jail? They'd get better at not being caught,they'd go deeper into their sets (gangs) and they'd be impossible to reach and turn around. So yeah they get sent to jail.When you break the law? You generally DESERVE to be punished and if it's severe enough for jail time? You generally DESERVE TO GO. Same for them.But you gotta arm them with something else besides the threat of jail to combat the pressures that they're under. The threat of jail? Not scarin them.It's oftentimes a badge of honor amongst their set; you get props for NOT being caught and you get props for takin your time like a man and not flippin on ya set ( not rattin anybody out).

 

[Carol]

California Penal Code 245(a)(1) defines a person who commits "assault with a deadly weapon" as:

a person who commits an assault with a deadly weapon or instrument or by any means of force likely to produce great bodily injury

The kid was knocked out cold, his teeth were knocked out, and he was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery. Was that alone not a means of force likely to produce great bodily injury?

 

[ATACX GYM]

California Penal Code 245(a)(1) defines a person who commits "assault with a deadly weapon" as:



The kid was knocked out cold, his teeth were knocked out, and he was rushed to the hospital for emergency surgery. Was that alone not a means of force likely to produce great bodily injury?

No it wasn't.I've seen these kinds of injuries in tournaments over the decades and all involved knew that there shouldn't be any legal action going on.I remember the riot at the LONG BEACH INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIPS years ago.People were gettin beat down everywhere.Way more than 90% of the combatants didn't press charges on each other.This kid caught a hard knockout kick,and the kid who threw it maliciously caught him unawares.The kid who threw the kick needs to go to jail,but the charges are deliberately inflated for political purposes.The charge should be assault.Because that's what happened.The hospitalized kid was assaulted.

 

[Tez3]

I couldn't agree with you more.The charge,the analriffic politics,the public ignorance regarding the lethality of kicks...all reek to high Heaven and the lowest bowels of Hell with extreme stupidity. I swear this prosecutor is beyond extremely stupid and callously grandstanding using the ridiculous childishness of a kid who made a remarkably stupid decision...this prosecutor guy went and had a long loud dufus-gasm in public.The kid deserves jail time,but we're not looking at a kid who's a graduate from the OZUNU CLAN from NINJA ASSASSIN the movie.We're looking at a kid who needs 3-6 months in jail and working on his temper.I also think that it's more than premature to start making assumptions and generalizations about his teacher and/or parents...some kids have solid teachers and parents,and they WILL be good kids in the future but right now? They have anger problems and they need help coping.They need to be punished for their excesses,but they also need help with permanently removing the root of their problem...or else they'll just get better at NOT GETTING CAUGHT.

I teach and have taught a decent amount of gang members.These kids have anger problems for the most part.They haven't done good things and by the time they come to me? They're in need a swift boot in the behind and iron discipline.It's not unheard of for me to put a physical exclamation on my point if these kids in any way defy my orders or don't jump to it fast enough or perform well enough when I give them the order.The results I get is very much like the results that old skool military training bequeathes to the formerly wayward: greater discipline,much stronger character and self control,real world confidence and oftentimes a genuine love for martial arts sports etc. I have a 86% success rate regarding sharp academic performance within the first months of training with me (my kids go from "failing" to generally 2.0+ before their academic quarter and semester is over).They frequently break ties with their gang or are no longer active in "retaliation revenge and git back" or "puttin in work for the hood"...but their lethality keeps their rep amongst their homies high and they rarely suffer from social backlash in their gang because they're now moving on to better things and most guys respect and appreciate that.

If I just handed out severe *** whompification on these kids for their transgressions and sent them to jail? They'd get better at not being caught,they'd go deeper into their sets (gangs) and they'd be impossible to reach and turn around. So yeah they get sent to jail.When you break the law? You generally DESERVE to be punished and if it's severe enough for jail time? You generally DESERVE TO GO. Same for them.But you gotta arm them with something else besides the threat of jail to combat the pressures that they're under. The threat of jail? Not scarin them.It's oftentimes a badge of honor amongst their set; you get props for NOT being caught and you get props for takin your time like a man and not flippin on ya set ( not rattin anybody out).

Could we have a translation please for the non American speakers?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No it wasn't.I've seen these kinds of injuries in tournaments over the decades and all involved knew that there shouldn't be any legal action going on.I remember the riot at the LONG BEACH INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIPS years ago.People were gettin beat down everywhere.Way more than 90% of the combatants didn't press charges on each other.This kid caught a hard knockout kick,and the kid who threw it maliciously caught him unawares.The kid who threw the kick needs to go to jail,but the charges are deliberately inflated for political purposes.The charge should be assault.Because that's what happened.The hospitalized kid was assaulted.

I'd say having your teeth knocked out is great bodily injury. Just an opinion.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I'd say having your teeth knocked out is great bodily injury. Just an opinion.

Okay...but I wouldn't.I've seen that numerous times in regular street fights and in martial arts tourneys.Contusions,fractures that aren't hairline fractures,broken bones,concussions,and worse is what I would call "great bodily injury" and that description is more consistent with the kind of contact that these guys are used to.We've seen NFL players get a tooth knocked out by hits,and nobody starts bandying about talk of felony charges. Remember when Joe Theismann got hit by Lawrence Taylor and his thigh snapped like kindling? Remember that football player who got PARALYZED for Christ's sake by one hit? Guys...THAT'S great bodily harm.Look at the definition (according to the California Penal Code) again:

"a person who commits an assault with a deadly weapon or instrument or by any means of force likely to produce great bodily injury"

Knife and gun attacks.Bat and broken bottle attacks.Being stomped by a gang of attackers.Getting cracked by crowbars.The use of instruments like lug wrenches hub caps and irons.golf clubs. Etc.These things are "deadly weapons or instruments" that "produce great bodily harm". Folks,a roundhouse to the mouthpiece doesn't equate here.It's ASSAULT but unless he kept cracking the kid while he was down or caused severe life threatening or multiple bone breaking or vital bone injuring (the spine,say,or neural damage) damage? We're talking ASSAULT and NOT assault WITH A DEADLY WEAPON.The prosecutor knows this better than you and I ever will,but he's getting his politics on.
Now,what was this surgery for? To replace his tooth? I bet there isn't a medical validation for this kid's life being in danger and I bet this kid doesn't have any severe after-effects from the kick.

Give the kicker 4-6 months and 2 years of probation,mandatory anger counseling,etc.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Could we have a translation please for the non American speakers?

TRANSLATION INTO INTERNATIONAL ENGLISH:

The prosecutor is politically grandstanding,the charges are exaggerated for political effect and are inherently unjust,the prosecutor is probably not the brightest guy in the universe.Jailing isn't the primary answer,crime prevention is. Blaming the kids' parents and/or teachers and/or society as a whole is too pat of an answer that may be doing the parents,teachers and society as a whole a great disservice.We may be talking about a kid with a temper who in a fit of anger did something stupid that will and should land him in jail,so don't have a cow about it and start lamenting about the great woes of society.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Okay...but I wouldn't.I've seen that numerous times in regular street fights and in martial arts tourneys.Contusions,fractures that aren't hairline fractures,broken bones,concussions,and worse is what I would call "great bodily injury" and that description is more consistent with the kind of contact that these guys are used to.

Except that this was not tournament fighting. There is no difference in reality if the attacker had taken out a person who was walking past the venue on the sidewalk. The fact that the victim is familiar with methods of self-defense does not change what the perpetrator did - inflict great bodily injury. If it was done in the ring, that's one thing. After the bout is over, outside the ring? That's no different that applying the same kick to the victim's grandmother. It's not who it was done to, it's what was done.

 

[Tez3]

Good grief we don't have teeth knocked out in MMA in or out of the cage/ring! Fighting in a competition is fighting with consent, both parties agree to fight and if they get injured during a fair fight then that's accepted by all parties. This attack is quite simply assault, here the CPS would decide whether it's ABH -actual bodily harm or GBH - grevious bodily harm, the charge depending on the damage inflicted by the assault as well as the intention behind the assault. There would be no charge of using a weapon, a charge of malicious wounding could be added if the charge is GBH which basically means the assault was intended to hurt someone badly.
Giving the teenager the benefit of the doubt that it was a fit of temper I'd say it was ABH, big fine, community service, suspended custodial sentence with tagging and compensation to victim.
If it was pre-meditated and the teenager meant to hurt the other lad it will be GBH with malicious wounding so custodial sentence.
The victim in either case would receive compensation from the court, a couple of thousand pounds usually for his injuries.

 

[punisher73]

Okay...but I wouldn't.I've seen that numerous times in regular street fights and in martial arts tourneys.Contusions,fractures that aren't hairline fractures,broken bones,concussions,and worse is what I would call "great bodily injury" and that description is more consistent with the kind of contact that these guys are used to.We've seen NFL players get a tooth knocked out by hits,and nobody starts bandying about talk of felony charges. Remember when Joe Theismann got hit by Lawrence Taylor and his thigh snapped like kindling? Remember that football player who got PARALYZED for Christ's sake by one hit? Guys...THAT'S great bodily harm.Look at the definition (according to the California Penal Code) again:

"a person who commits an assault with a deadly weapon or instrument or by any means of force likely to produce great bodily injury"

Knife and gun attacks.Bat and broken bottle attacks.Being stomped by a gang of attackers.Getting cracked by crowbars.The use of instruments like lug wrenches hub caps and irons.golf clubs. Etc.These things are "deadly weapons or instruments" that "produce great bodily harm". Folks,a roundhouse to the mouthpiece doesn't equate here.It's ASSAULT but unless he kept cracking the kid while he was down or caused severe life threatening or multiple bone breaking or vital bone injuring (the spine,say,or neural damage) damage? We're talking ASSAULT and NOT assault WITH A DEADLY WEAPON.The prosecutor knows this better than you and I ever will,but he's getting his politics on.
Now,what was this surgery for? To replace his tooth? I bet there isn't a medical validation for this kid's life being in danger and I bet this kid doesn't have any severe after-effects from the kick.

Give the kicker 4-6 months and 2 years of probation,mandatory anger counseling,etc.

In the first paragraph you list ALL serious injuries were parties were competing voluntarily in a sport. I guarantee if LT would have put a hit on a guy in the parking lot AFTER the game after they were all dressed out because he didn't like the call DURING the game he would have had criminal charges brought as well.

Second part I highlighted, this wasn't a roundhouse kick to the mouthpiece. This was AFTER the match, the defendant went to the locker room, changed and CAME BACK into the arena and KO'd an unsuspecting victim. This wasn't even an argument that got escalated. This was cold and maliscious and would be charged that way in almost any area.

Here is a website that talks about California's "great bodily harm" and also the charge ADW s/ GBH.

http://www.shouselaw.com/gbi.html

Notice the following quote on what courtcases in CA have ALREADY ruled is great bodily harm.

As previously stated, what constitutes great bodily harm is determined on a case-by-case basis. This means that even though an injury qualifies as GBI in one case, the same injury caused under different circumstances...or evaluated by a different jury...may not.
That said, here are just a few examples of injuries where the court imposed a great bodily injury enhancement.

• broken bones[SUP]22[/SUP] (specifically including...but not limited to...jaw fractures,[SUP]23[/SUP] a broken nose,[SUP]24[/SUP] and a broken hand[SUP]25[/SUP]),
  

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Imagine I get into the ring with Mike Tyson. He agrees to fight me, and I smack him a good one and knock out his teeth. Assault? No, we are both agreed to engage in mutual combat of this nature. The law recognizes this.

Now imagine that I meet Mike Tyson's mom on the street and smack her a good one and knock out her teeth. Assault? You betcha.

Some here are arguing that if I met Mike Tyson on the street and knocked out his teeth, it would be a DIFFERENT crime than if I knocked out his mom's teeth, because he is a trained fighter. NONSENSE. The crime would be completely the same. It would be based on my intent and the actual damage done, not on who I did it to.

Please note, I did say 'imagine'. Of course I would never be so foolish as to assault either Mike Tyson or his mom. Nor would I get into the ring with either one. Just an example.

 

[Makalakumu]

After some thought, I decided to come back and reply to this...

PROVE IT.

Google fu alone turns up thousands of scholarly articles about studies that demonstrate the emotional trauma of spanking and corporal punishment. You can't act like this body of research doesn't exist. Does this "prove" that beatings cause emotional trauma? No, that's impossible, but there is a good case for it.

Child abuse is like a bomb in the brain when it comes to violence. It matters.

Good for you. I don't doubt you. You will note that I do not insist that parents strike their children as a form of discipline, but those parents who do not for some reason seem to think they have the right to tell others what to do with their own children. "Probably responsible?" In your mind, perhaps. In reality, no. But that 'probably' gives liberals the right, in their own minds, to tell others how to live. It's an old story. My way is better, therefore I get to tell you how to live.

In reality, yes. I feel comfortable in stating that beatings cause emotional (and physical) trauma in children. Does this mean that parents don't have a choice to beat their children if they wish? Sure, but they will pay the consequences later. The parents suffer, the child suffers, and society suffers when we agress against the young. And I believe that parents have the right choose, just as anyone has the right to choose, even if the choice is...well...evil.

My argument against beating a child is a moral one. Children are humans who have rights, wishes and goals. When we beat a child to force them to conform to our expectations, we literally stomp on those rights, wishes and goals. We make them into our slaves. If beating was the only way to control children, there would be little to argue about. The fact that people can raise their children without resorting to violence begs the question, why would anyone choose to beat their children at all?

Imagine teaching the young ones from an early age that it's bad to use force to get what you want and then breaking that principle in order to get what you want. What kind of view of violence is this child going to develop? Imagine a society filled with people that have this drummed into their heads. What would they do? At the very least, they probably will continue to beat their children. At the very least, they might even commit assault after loosing in a karate tournament.

At some point, I believe humanity will realize that child abuse is the largest obstacle to living in a free society. It's not enough for slaves to decide not to be slaves. The masters need to decide not to be masters.