Teaching the student how to fight

[JowGaWolf]

if you think Kata- was ever intended to be used in a fight, you have simply shown your ignorance concerning styles that use them.

Not to be a downer. My forms can be used in fighting. They are actually a collection of single and combination strikes. The movements are the same movements that you would use in a fighting We do have parts like standing in a horse stance a certain way that we would never do in the fight, but the strike that is done while standing could easily be used in a fight.

 

[jobo]

I would be fine with that answer if we didn't have other styles of martial arts that are fully capable of translating a large body of techniques without the use of kata.

lots of sports do a very similar thing,
soccer for instances has you weaving in and out of cones before kicking the ball in an empty net

you could ask what value that gives when faced with defenders some what more mobile than a cone and a goal keeper.

but highly skill profesional teams continue to do this and otherthings like this

 

[Highlander]

That would make learning to fight more difficult. If all you do is practice movement and concepts. You aren't actually doing movement as it relates to carrying out an applications. As you describe it, that makes it sound as if it's just an exercise.

Thats why you don't train forms and only forms its just one training tool

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My Sifu has said that if all we wanted was to learn to fight quickly, he could teach us that in the space of a year and it would include no forms.

Agree with you 100% there.

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me an open hand form Bagua Chuan and a staff form Pi Shou Gan. One time I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use information out of my form. After my brother in law found out that I was interested in fighting, he stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked me to do "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years.

After that 3 years of 1 step 3 punches training, when I joined in my senior high school long fist class, I could beat up most of my long fist brothers in sparring by using my 1 step 3 punches training experience. Every time when I punched, it was always 3 punches toward my opponent's face from all different direction. My favor 1 step 3 punches are right jab, left cross, right hook, and right jab, left hook, right hook.

If you plan a 10 years program for your students, all teaching methods will be equal and be able to reach to the same goal.

The OP is interested in how to train WC fighters within 12-18 months. IMO, in order to achieve that goal, form training can be postponed. Students should spend all their training time in sparring, sparring, and still sparring.

I do believe a WC student can develop this skill within 18 months.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The only part I disagree with here is where you say forms can be replaced.

I assume you are talking about how to train WC fighters within 18 months. After that 18 months, you can teach them all the forms that you want to teach.

I don't believe spartan warriors have solo form training in their program.

 

[wckf92]

if you removed form training

If memory serves...there are one or two branches of WC that do not have the three 'hand' forms...

 

[wckf92]

IMO, the footwork should be taught on day one

I agree. In my WC upbringing...it was. We were not told what we were doing (i.e. from where in the forms or system it came from)...but in our first week/month we were learning and practicing a huge amount of 2nd form footwork, footwork from the pole form, and most importantly the knife-specific footwork. Every class we did this, regardless of whether one was a new student or an advanced student.

 

[wckf92]

to BB

What is BB?

 

[wckf92]

I just don't see any value to train those moves.

That's because they are not "moves". They are simply imparting an idea while at the same time conditioning the tendons.

 

[Hanzou]

lots of sports do a very similar thing,
soccer for instances has you weaving in and out of cones before kicking the ball in an empty net

you could ask what value that gives when faced with defenders some what more mobile than a cone and a goal keeper.

but highly skill profesional teams continue to do this and otherthings like this

That's a drill, not a pre-arranged pattern.

 

[wckf92]

Map it into form later if you want

This 'mapping' to the forms is important to some, not important to others. But generally I'd agree that fighting skill should take priority.

 

[wckf92]

As has been stated: the forms in WC are not akin to a typical "kata" as seen in other Asian martial arts. I remember learning dozens of forms in other Japanese and Korean martials arts in my youth. Each one was emphasized as a fighting template or kata. When I found WC, I was at first amazed to hear that the forms were not "fighting" forms.

 

[jobo]

That's a drill, not a pre-arranged pattern.

its a drill in a prearranged pattern, , which is my point about prearranged patterns being common in drills for sport

nb we dont tend to use the term drill over here, to militaristic, it just training

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I found WC, I was at first amazed to hear that the forms were not "fighting" forms.

It's difficult to apply kill 2 birds with 1 rock approach here.

When I run, I punch at the same time. I also hold weight in both hands for weight training. This way I can kill 3 birds with 1 stone.

Every time when I do whole body warm up, it takes me about 20 minutes. I always feel guilty and think I should use that time to train more fighting related drills. I don't like to use 1 rock just to kill 1 bird.

One time when I visited China, I met a 86 years old man who did long fist form with palm moving up and down. I asked him about the fighting application. He was pretty mad and refused to answered my question. I'm very allergic to any move in the form that's not fighting related.

 

[Hanzou]

its a drill in a prearranged pattern, , which is my point about prearranged patterns being common in drills for sport

nb we dont tend to use the term drill over here, to militaristic, it just training

Yeah, it's not a pre-arranged pattern. Prearranged means every step is pre-determined and has to be emulated as close to the standard as possible. Exactly like a choreographed dance routine.

Running through cones and kicking a ball at the end is nothing like that.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, it's not a pre-arranged pattern. Prearranged means every step is pre-determined and has to be emulated as close to the standard as possible. Exactly like a choreographed dance routine.

Running through cones and kicking a ball at the end is nothing like that.

, yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net

next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net

how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki

 

[Hanzou]

, yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net

next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net

how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki

Stuff like this;

Are called drills.

 

[drop bear]

, yes its a prearanged patern, you move your body left and use the right foot to move the ball, then right with the left foot repeat for 12 cones then use you right foot to kick the ball in the net

next go you move your body right then left etal then use your left foot to kick the ball into the net

how is that not a pre arranged pattern, its almost the hoki koki

Yeah but there is a direct link to micro movements and timing needed to control the ball. Kata does not have that link. If i kick the ball wrong it goes wrong. If I kata wrong someone has to tell me or I would never know.

These comparisons are quite often not accurate representations of each other.

 

[jobo]

Yeah but there is a direct link to micro movements and timing needed to control the ball. Kata does not have that link. If i kick the ball wrong it goes wrong. If I kata wrong someone has to tell me or I would never know.

These comparisons are quite often not accurate representations of each other.

when i do kata wrong( as i often do) it often very evident as i kick someone or walk into a wall or at the very least am facing the wrong way

thats if you allow that you can do it wrong, which id contest

 

[jobo]

Stuff like this;

Are called drills.

they maybe in America, not so often here,