Teaching the student how to fight

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yak sao

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I assume you are talking about how to train WC fighters within 18 months. After that 18 months, you can teach them all the forms that you want to teach.

I don't believe spartan warriors have solo form training in their program.

spartan-warrors.jpg

I'd be willing to bet they took a given technique and worked the hell out of it...both solo and with partner training and ultimately on the battlfield.

That solo training is form training.
I think that might be where we're having a disconnect.

WC forms are not like other MA forms.
Having had pretty extensive forms training in another CMA pre WC, I know this to be true.

Other systems forms are the encyclopedias for that given system.
WC forms are more akin to a dictionary, or as I like to put it, a list of things to practice.
Running through the Siu Nim Tao for example, is not practicing the form.
It's simply going through the list of what to practice.

To truly practice SNT or any WC form, it's better to take a given movement and practice it solo to work the gross kinks out of it, practice drills with a partner to further refine it, then apply it in sparring.
Then you put that movement back on the shelf and pull out the next one and wash-rinse-repeat.
 

Highlander

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One time when I visited China, I met a 86 years old man who did long fist form with palm moving up and down. I asked him about the fighting application. He was pretty mad and refused to answered my question. I'm very allergic to any move in the form that's not fighting related.
Seems like a pretty narrow view for someone training TMA
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.
 
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yak sao

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Agree! Get fighting ability first. Map it into form later if you want to (for self polishing purpose).

My wing tsun training has been under the same lineage but 2 different instructors with 2 different approaches.
My first instructor for 10 years was very much a fighter and that was the focus of the training, but we still did form work.
Then my next 10 years was with someone who had been a fightet when younger but his approach by the time I made his acquaintance had changed and was more about refinement.

After being under my second teacher for 10 years it has taken me a while to find my way back to the approach of my first teacher.

My new approach is to basically follow the model of my own experience...fight first then refine along the way.
 
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yak sao

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Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.

Yeah, I picked up on that:).

The difference in this thread is there is some great feedback and honest discussion going on............
so far
 

Kung Fu Wang

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CMA have a saying for the fancy forms guys who can't fight...

Flowery hands and embroidery fists.
The day when you start to collect gold metals in MA form competition tournament, the day that your fighting life is over. Your life will take a complete different path after that.

If in your form, you have a left arm move like this, what application will you explain to your students? Left hand reach to your left pocket, grab a knife, and throw at your opponent? You may also say you just try to loose your left shoulder joint.

Will you just change it into an upward block even if it may not look as pretty as the original move?

After this many years, I still cannot figure out any MA application for the last left arm movement in the following clip.

This is why I'm allergic to non-fighting move in a form (it looks very cool though).

block-punch.gif
 
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Highlander

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Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.
Haha yeah I caught that too. But there was a good point made in that thread. If you click through the active topics you might not even realize what sub forum the thread is from
 

isshinryuronin

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I see a range of opinions here regarding forms in some MA systems and not others. Most of them IMO are valid on both sides as it depends on the system and how that system developed. Boxing, MMA, wrestling and some modern "karate" systems developed as a sport, open to all, with the techniques "open source."

Most kung fu and karate systems began not as a sport. The techniques were not open source, but guarded, proprietary, secrets held close within the style. Practice was done away from outside, prying eyes. This is why moves in many kung fu styles have such poetic names, such as Floating leaf, Dragon's mouth, Returning gift, or whatever - you get the idea. Why?

This "code" referred to specific techniques and was known only to the practitioners of that particular style, thus keeping that system's style of fighting from becoming known to the public. Students were sworn to secrecy. May sound silly to us, today in the information age, but 200, 300, years ago it was a big deal. Their forms seemed abstract (dancelike) to the outsider as it was hard to discern the application of the moves. It was purposely designed this way so the practitioners could practice (they knew what the moves really meant) without revealing the meaning to those outside their style.

In Okinawa, they didn't even have names for many of the moves, poetic or otherwise. It was just "do this" if someone tries to grab your shoulder, and "do that" if they have their lead leg extended too far. The application was shown personally by the master to his students. So kata was one way to categorize these moves. It was only after karate was taught publicly to large numbers that the need for an easily understood lexicon arose.

So some systems have full long forms, some have short series of moves, some have prearranged drills, some don't. Every sport, every MA, has its own way of training. In most all cases, there is a reason they train that way that works for what that art is trying to accomplish, based on how it developed.

No need to try to pick each art apart based on your own point of view. Even I have some personal faults and do things that seem counter-productive to my goals, but my wife loves me just the same.
 

drop bear

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when i do kata wrong( as i often do) it often very evident as i kick someone or walk into a wall or at the very least am facing the wrong way

thats if you allow that you can do it wrong, which id contest

Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer.

Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.
 

drop bear

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Anyone else notice that this is in a WC sub, asking a question specifically to WC people, and most of the respondents are not WC folks? After the other thread on the topic I find it kinda funny.

Are most of the respondents fighters or train fighters?

Because that would be the other issue of relevance as well.
 

jobo

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Yeah but you compare that to being able to move a ball with your foot in a direction of your choosing. Which is pretty fundamental to soccer.

Being able to perform kata isn't fundamental to fighting.
that wasn't the point at issue

what was, is pre sequenced drills are common through out sport

if you want to contest that go ahead
 

drop bear

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that wasn't the point at issue

what was, is pre sequenced drills are common through out sport

if you want to contest that go ahead

The contest is you can't rate one drill by the effectiveness of another.

So yes you are right that there are drills in sport. But if they are drills that produce different results then it doesn't matter.

You can't put kata and ball handling drills as doing anywhere near the same thing.

So "a lot of sports do a similar thing" something something soccer.

No. Soccer does not do a similar thing.
 

jobo

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The contest is you can't rate one drill by the effectiveness of another.

So yes you are right that there are drills in sport. But if they are drills that produce different results then it doesn't matter.

You can't put kata and ball handling drills as doing anywhere near the same thing.
well i can if i want

but, the point in question was do other sports do pre sequence drill and even you admit they do

so thats that discussion over
 

drop bear

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well i can if i want

but, the point in question was do other sports do pre sequence drill and even you admit they do

so thats that discussion over

Well yeah. Competition ballroom dancing would be an example.

So wing chun and ballroom have similar training methods.
 

jobo

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Well yeah. Competition ballroom dancing would be an example.

So wing chun and ballroom have similar training methods.
i keep telling you the discussions over, ive prove my point, im not sure why your harassing me on unrelated topics
 

drop bear

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i keep telling you the discussions over, ive prove my point, im not sure why your harnessing me on unrelated topics

You know who also doesn't have harnesses?

Ballroom dancing.

Basically the same thing.
 

Graywalker

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Not to be a downer. My forms can be used in fighting. They are actually a collection of single and combination strikes. The movements are the same movements that you would use in a fighting We do have parts like standing in a horse stance a certain way that we would never do in the fight, but the strike that is done while standing could easily be used in a fight.
Same with Karate kata, it is the individual movements that are used, not the step by step sequence. It is well known that Itosu designed the Katas from individual techniques paired together in order for his students to remember the actual self defense techniques.

The entire Kata in sequence being used in an actual combat situation, is simply not the purpose of Kata. To think otherwise, is just a lack of knowledge.
 

Graywalker

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Uh, if Kata is a template for fighting, yet is never intended to be used for fighting, then it isn't a template for fighting.

In short, what you just said is a contradiction....
It is a template for techniques, used for fighting. Think about the various self defense techniques, and then put them in order, however you want, if you repeat the same techniques, the same way...you are using a template...or a kata. If you teach certain combinations of moves, and you rely on that sequence, you are basically doing Kata. IMO.

The word "Kata" translates to Template.
 
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