taijutsu/taisabaki
- Thread starter Aiki Lee
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
No, they are different.
Taijutsu are the unarmed fighting skills. Or more correctly, everything to do with 'body skills / manipulation' which include unarmed fighting skills, but also ukemi, kaiten, locks, throws, etc... yet the name is commonly used in the same way 'jujutsu' is used: to mean fighting skills as well as everything that goes with the unarmed system.
Taisabaki is the name used for the collection of body movements that are used for evading, positioning and angling the body to gain the advantage.
For example, a specific lock like kote gyaku is part of taijutsu. But a correct execution depends on tai sabaki (the correct positioning of your own body) while setting the lock in order to apply the lock as it is meant to be done without having to use force or putting yourself in a compromised position.
Taijutsu are the unarmed fighting skills. Or more correctly, everything to do with 'body skills / manipulation' which include unarmed fighting skills, but also ukemi, kaiten, locks, throws, etc... yet the name is commonly used in the same way 'jujutsu' is used: to mean fighting skills as well as everything that goes with the unarmed system.
Taisabaki is the name used for the collection of body movements that are used for evading, positioning and angling the body to gain the advantage.
For example, a specific lock like kote gyaku is part of taijutsu. But a correct execution depends on tai sabaki (the correct positioning of your own body) while setting the lock in order to apply the lock as it is meant to be done without having to use force or putting yourself in a compromised position.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
taisabaki is one of the components of taijutsu, and deals with positioning of your body.
taisabaki does not cover ukemi, striking, throws, locks, etc.
It is the topic of moving and positioning your body. If you add all the other stuff (striking, throws, locks, etc) on top of that, you get taijutsu.
taisabaki does not cover ukemi, striking, throws, locks, etc.
It is the topic of moving and positioning your body. If you add all the other stuff (striking, throws, locks, etc) on top of that, you get taijutsu.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
To be simple.
Taijutsu is unarmed "fighting" system.
Tai Sabaki is "Body movement"
Tai Sabaki is a concept within Taijutsu.
TaiSabaki is also a concept used in other Japanese systems too. Unarmed or Armed.
Just like Ashi Sabaki (Foot movement)
Indagator
Blue Belt
Just for clarification; would this term (tai sabaki) be inclusive of concepts such as when you are "hinging", say, at the knees to bridge distance without moving your feet? Or like when you have the uke locked up and you shift body position using the legs while leaving the upper body in the same position until rotating the upper body to match the legs, throwing the opponent?
Errr... maybe I haven't quite described what I am meaning here, lol. I hope it makes sense hehehe...
Errr... maybe I haven't quite described what I am meaning here, lol. I hope it makes sense hehehe...
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Tanaka
Purple Belt
Taijutsu is the art.
The martial art.
Tai Sabaki is the movements used in the art.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi Himura,
There seems to be a little confusion here, I'll try to help clear it up for you.
Taijutsu literally translates as "Body (Tai) Practical Art/Skills (Jutsu)", and refers to combative methods using your body. This includes methods of striking, blocking, kicking, grappling, throwing, choking etc, and can be utilised in conjunction with various forms of weaponry, or at the very least, as a basis for the use of weaponry.
Tai Sabaki literally translates as "Body (Tai) Movement/Manipulation (Sabaki)", and refers to methods of moving your body in order to utilise the skills of Taijutsu and weaponry. It covers the concepts of footwork, angling, distancing, evasive movement, body positioning, weight shifting, and so forth. It can be evasive, defensive, or offensive. I will disagree with Bruno in that it can incorporate entering methods and unbalancing methods as well. Most typically, though, it is used to refer to movements away from an attacking action, and into the most advantageous position possible.
With your sword example, a sword thrust is Kenjutsu, the footwork used to get the correct distance, angle, and position would be Tai Sabaki. It's not uncommon in the Bujinkan to hear things such as "Use your Taijutsu" even when using a weapon, however I focus more on use fo the weapon as distinct from Taijutsu, so according to the Bujinkan, everything is Taijutsu, according to my approach, Kenjutsu is Kenjutsu, Taijutsu is Taijutsu. If you were to create a Venn Diagram of them, there is certainly quite a bit of overlap, but they are still seperate to my mind.
With Indagators example, I'd need to see him performing it to see to determine whether or not Tai Sabaki is the applicable term, it could go either way from the way I'm reading it here.
There seems to be a little confusion here, I'll try to help clear it up for you.
Taijutsu literally translates as "Body (Tai) Practical Art/Skills (Jutsu)", and refers to combative methods using your body. This includes methods of striking, blocking, kicking, grappling, throwing, choking etc, and can be utilised in conjunction with various forms of weaponry, or at the very least, as a basis for the use of weaponry.
Tai Sabaki literally translates as "Body (Tai) Movement/Manipulation (Sabaki)", and refers to methods of moving your body in order to utilise the skills of Taijutsu and weaponry. It covers the concepts of footwork, angling, distancing, evasive movement, body positioning, weight shifting, and so forth. It can be evasive, defensive, or offensive. I will disagree with Bruno in that it can incorporate entering methods and unbalancing methods as well. Most typically, though, it is used to refer to movements away from an attacking action, and into the most advantageous position possible.
With your sword example, a sword thrust is Kenjutsu, the footwork used to get the correct distance, angle, and position would be Tai Sabaki. It's not uncommon in the Bujinkan to hear things such as "Use your Taijutsu" even when using a weapon, however I focus more on use fo the weapon as distinct from Taijutsu, so according to the Bujinkan, everything is Taijutsu, according to my approach, Kenjutsu is Kenjutsu, Taijutsu is Taijutsu. If you were to create a Venn Diagram of them, there is certainly quite a bit of overlap, but they are still seperate to my mind.
With Indagators example, I'd need to see him performing it to see to determine whether or not Tai Sabaki is the applicable term, it could go either way from the way I'm reading it here.
Indagator
Blue Belt
Yes, sorry, I'm having some trouble trying to think how to put it into words lol. I'll try and describe it a bit better.
So let's say the uke strikes with a punch and I evade by moving into ichimonji at a 45 degree angle to his body position, with my lead hand just barely brushing against his punching arm. From there I shift my weight and "hinge" at the knees to adjust into an optimum position to deliver an ura shuto strike from my rear hand, which I then deliver. My feet do not move at all, from where they are when I flow into ichimonji.
Simultaneous with the shuto strike, I slip my other arm under his arm adn wrap it over, locking his arm between my arm and the back of my neck. As I cinch this my footwork shifts by rotating only the lower half of my body to disguise what I am doing. My upper body remains in the same position s before. When my feet are in place in the new rotated position I then straighten up my body which pretty much results in throwing the uke from me.
Would the hinging, weight shifting and the part where I rotate the lower half of the body be taisabaki?
Hmmm... reading back through this I still don't think I am quite explaining what I am getting at properly but hopefully it does better than what I had before...
So let's say the uke strikes with a punch and I evade by moving into ichimonji at a 45 degree angle to his body position, with my lead hand just barely brushing against his punching arm. From there I shift my weight and "hinge" at the knees to adjust into an optimum position to deliver an ura shuto strike from my rear hand, which I then deliver. My feet do not move at all, from where they are when I flow into ichimonji.
Simultaneous with the shuto strike, I slip my other arm under his arm adn wrap it over, locking his arm between my arm and the back of my neck. As I cinch this my footwork shifts by rotating only the lower half of my body to disguise what I am doing. My upper body remains in the same position s before. When my feet are in place in the new rotated position I then straighten up my body which pretty much results in throwing the uke from me.
Would the hinging, weight shifting and the part where I rotate the lower half of the body be taisabaki?
Hmmm... reading back through this I still don't think I am quite explaining what I am getting at properly but hopefully it does better than what I had before...
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Ha, so kind of a combination between Koyoku and Ichimonji, huh?
The following phrases are indications of Tai Sabaki:
- "moving into ichimonji at a 45 degree angle to his body position..."
- "shift my weight... into an optimum position..."
- "my footwork shifts..."
The parts that aren't are the Shuto, and the Ganseki action. But you can see that without proper Tai Sabaki (as indicated in your words above), the Shuto and Ganseki just aren't there for you.
The following phrases are indications of Tai Sabaki:
- "moving into ichimonji at a 45 degree angle to his body position..."
- "shift my weight... into an optimum position..."
- "my footwork shifts..."
The parts that aren't are the Shuto, and the Ganseki action. But you can see that without proper Tai Sabaki (as indicated in your words above), the Shuto and Ganseki just aren't there for you.
David43515
Master Black Belt
As far as I understand the Japanese terms,the part I put in bold is the most important element that makes it "sabaki".You`re not just "moving" You`re moving to a safe area where you can avoid an attack and have the best chance of countering.I`m not sure, but I think a local Karate teacher told me the verb "Sabaku" originally comes from fishing but the use it in martial arts because it implies "movement that gets you into an advantagous position, instead of just "movement".
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
There are a range of different Kanji that can be used, with different meanings. For example, there is a kanji for Sabaku/ki that can be used which refers to cutting, specifically clothes to tailor them to a person. There, the concept could be tailoring your movement to the situation. This is one of the most wonderful, and frustrating aspects of the written Japanese language.
For the record, the kanji I keep seeing is 捌 which has a translation of "to move, to manipulate, or to dispose of" in most references. I haven't heard anything about it coming from a fishing term, though.
For the record, the kanji I keep seeing is 捌 which has a translation of "to move, to manipulate, or to dispose of" in most references. I haven't heard anything about it coming from a fishing term, though.
OP
OP
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Ok, I think I'm starting to get the picture here. I may have been overthinking this a bit much.
So let's take koyoku from the koto ryu as my example.
As uke attacks, the shifting of my weight into more advantageous positions that keep me from being hit and put me in a good position to hit is tai sabaki correct?
The the actual striking I do to him in the kata is taijutsu but I am using the elements of taisabaki to employ proper body movements to make the taijutsu as effective as possible?
Am i following you all correctly or did I wide up off track at some point?
So let's take koyoku from the koto ryu as my example.
As uke attacks, the shifting of my weight into more advantageous positions that keep me from being hit and put me in a good position to hit is tai sabaki correct?
The the actual striking I do to him in the kata is taijutsu but I am using the elements of taisabaki to employ proper body movements to make the taijutsu as effective as possible?
Am i following you all correctly or did I wide up off track at some point?
David43515
Master Black Belt
From what I understand, you`ve got it.
Thanks Chris, I speak Japanese well, but I still don`t read it well. Kanji is interesting but really frustrating sometimes.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
I am learning Japanese, and while I have basic reading and writing skills, speaking is more an issue. The reason is that I do most of it via home study (my sensei is teaching me) and I don't get to practice speaking often.
The most frustrating thing about kanji imo is that fact that the onyomi pronunciation is identical for many kanji. I haven't finished learning the kyoiku kanji by a long shot, but it is annoying how many times e.g. 'kou', 'ji' and 'shuu' are used to name things that are completely unrelated.
I know this has to do with the fact that the tonal nature of the pronunciations were lost when they took over the writing system, but man is it ever so annoying if you're trying to learn them and interpret them.
