The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

Wing Woo Gar

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When twisting with the waist don't twist on the spine twist with the core muscles. Relax and GENTLY twist the waist. This is twisting the spine. Now tighten your stomach and twist the waist. This is twisting with your core. You should be able to feel a big difference. It should also feel powerful and naturally engage the legs.
So you do it too?
 

Flying Crane

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Very well put as is usual for you. I dont take offense when people dismiss it, I know that it doesnt matter what others think of the practice. It works for me and has worked best on people outside the style. I am confident in my ability even though I am likely the least of my training brothers. I have a student that is likely to eclipse my ability very soon. It makes me proud that I have been able to transfer the skills to another. I have quite a few more videos that are old films. Perhaps I shall post them.
I dont take offense either, but at times these discussions can be frustrating. I think that is natural and not surprising. We talk back-and-forth about stuff with a bunch of people, I put in a comment from my perspective, sometimes people talk around it or dont engage the idea for a variety of reasons, it can seem like it is just ignored or even dismissed out of hand or outright contradicted. Its frustrating. But the truth is, they simply dont have the experience with it for it to be meaningful to them. That doesnt make what they say wrong; it can be exactly right for them, based on their experience. But they are not in a position to appreciate what people like you and I are trying to communicate. Such is the nature of an online discussion. We all gotta be ok with it.
 

Tony Dismukes

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You arent a fan, but you can do it like I described? Dont get me wrong, but this is exactly why I dont describe what I do much. People think they know, and then dismiss it out of hand. If the left lateral surface of the femoral head is facing front, then when the left straight punch is shot to the front, the shoulder and hip will be in alignment. The person must be sure not to over rotate so as to not get the shoulder behind the hip.
I tried following your instructions and could sort of do it, but Im not at all sure Im understanding your description correctly. Do you still have those videos online? Id love to take a look. Seeing works better than reading.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I'm not a fan of using waist turning instead of hip turning, but there are definitely times where it can be useful to use waist turning in addition to hip turning.

I agree with your first definition. Hip rotation is literally using the legs to turn the hip girdle (along with the rest of the torso above the hips) from one direction to another. If you are using just hip rotation then your shoulders will stay aligned with your hips. (Assuming you aren't adding leaning into the mix.)

Waist rotation is using the muscles of the core to twist the spine (generally around the waist) so that the shoulders end up rotated further than the hip position.

I don't think there are many applications where it is helpful to generate power by just twisting the waist without moving the hips. But using both forms of rotation together is pretty common. In those cases I think the ideal is to initiate the power from the legs, rotating the hips, then moving up to the torso for waist rotation, with any contributions from the chest, upper back, and arms coming last.
Im trying to send you a pm but it doesnt recognize your screen name. Anyways I was trying to apologize to you for sounding rude when responding to you. It was not my intent. You have my respect sir, I do not wish to impart otherwise. Sincerely, Jason.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I tried following your instructions and could sort of do it, but Im not at all sure Im understanding your description correctly. Do you still have those videos online? Id love to take a look. Seeing works better than reading.
I will try to post some tomorrow. Thanks for engaging and tolerating my poor attempts at describing.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Im trying to send you a pm but it doesnt recognize your screen name. Anyways I was trying to apologize to you for sounding rude when responding to you. It was not my intent. You have my respect sir, I do not wish to impart otherwise. Sincerely, Jason.
You didnt sound rude at all. Im interested in what youre describing.

To send a private message, click on my name where it shows beside my post, then select the start conversation option.
 

Holmejr

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You can use waist turn instead of hip turn. It may sacrifice some power for increased mobility. I use both for different situations.
waist vs hip? Turn at waist and leave hips square? Almost sounds painful lol. Looking forward to the videos depicting the difference.

This gives an excellent description of the straight/cross.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The waist and hip are so close to each other. When the power comes from the ankle, knee, hip, waist, it's hard to separate hip and waist after that.

I had exactly the same training as in this clip when I was in my high school long fist class. The funny thing was, the day when I cross trained the WC system, I was not allowed to twist my body like this. Even today, I still don't know how to integrate long fist and WC together. Both arts are just so different.

Is this waist turn or hip turn?

 
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Wing Woo Gar

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The waist and hip are so close to each other. When the power comes from the ankle, knee, hip, waist, it's hard to separate hip and waist after that.

I had exactly the same training as in this clip when I was in my high school long fist class. The funny thing was, the day when I cross trained the WC system, I was not allowed to twist my body like this. Even today, I still don't know how to integrate long fist and WC together. Both arts are just so different.

Is this waist turn or hip turn?

Both as depicted here. I should be clear that the idea is to isolate the waist turn for training purposes. Think of what some people may call reverse punch. Sit in a deep working horse, shoot reverse punches but hold legs and hip still and lift up the insides and shoot the punch off the back as the waist turns. I know you have seen this somewhere right?
 

Wing Woo Gar

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waist vs hip? Turn at waist and leave hips square? Almost sounds painful lol. Looking forward to the videos depicting the difference.

This gives an excellent description of the straight/cross.
Not painful, but I think maybe people misunderstand me somewhat. If I sit down in a deep horse and shoot uppercuts straight up the middle without bobbing or moving the leg or hip. The waist HAS to turn in order to shoot that uppercut up the middle. Otherwise its not the legs driving the punch, its just the arm. Granted, most of the time that will work too but you can get a lot more power when you can isolate the waist turn in practice. Its like an extra gear or torques you can ADD to the hip in application.
 

Holmejr

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The waist and hip are so close to each other. When the power comes from the ankle, knee, hip, waist, it's hard to separate hip and waist after that.

I had exactly the same training as in this clip when I was in my high school long fist class. The funny thing was, the day when I cross trained the WC system, I was not allowed to twist my body like this. Even today, I still don't know how to integrate long fist and WC together. Both arts are just so different.

Is this waist turn or hip turn?

I vote Torso
 

JowGaWolf

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So you do it too?
yes, I actually use both methods for generating power but not at the same time. There are certain punches and techniques that are impossible to power sufficiently by using the hips to generate the power. Twisting with my waist allows me to put more body weight into my punch.

For example. This is a basic punch in Jow Ga. There's no way to power this punch by simply twisting the hips.

I personally think that it's good to know both ways. Stand in a horse stance and try to Power a straight punch by using your hips. Then do the same and try to power the punch using your waist.

Now pick up a broom stick or a staff if you have one. Power the swing by turning your hips like you do in person. Then power the swing by using your waist. Waist versus hips to power a punch or a strike is not an either or choice for me. The waist is more powerful because it engages a larger set of muscles. It produces a heavier hit but not necessarily a more powerful one as that requires the ability to tie other power generators with it.
 

JowGaWolf

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Not painful, but I think maybe people misunderstand me somewhat. If I sit down in a deep horse and shoot uppercuts straight up the middle without bobbing or moving the leg or hip. The waist HAS to turn in order to shoot that uppercut up the middle. Otherwise its not the legs driving the punch, its just the arm. Granted, most of the time that will work too but you can get a lot more power when you can isolate the waist turn in practice. Its like an extra gear or torques you can ADD to the hip in application.
I was thinking this same example. certain positions won't allow the hip to generate power by turning over. When the feet are positioned in a horse stance. That hip is already turned over.
 

JowGaWolf

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I vote Torso
It depends on who is doing the punch. For me we used our waist because we follow the concept that both arms are used to send one punch. For example. To send a right punch. The left arm should pull to help power the punch.

Another drill that I use is to focus only on the pulling and not the punching. The faster I pull my left arm back by twisting my waist, the faster my right arm goes out. The first time a person does the exercise, he/she will discover that the waist has completed the twist before the punch has started. This is often due to the lack of connection between the two sides of the body.

In application, I have the option to use that twisting motion to redirect an incoming punch or kick. I can also grab my opponent's arm and pull him into my punch. It is impossible to pull my opponent into my punch unless I twist my waist. If I only twist my hip then there is no pull. The pulling of one arm can power the punch of the other.

1674214715914.png


Is it always like this? Of course not. Sometimes there's no need to pull that left side too far back. Most of the time the twist is short and powerful. I think I have some video of me punching the heavy bag using the long fist exercise that you showed.
 

Flying Crane

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The waist and hip are so close to each other. When the power comes from the ankle, knee, hip, waist, it's hard to separate hip and waist after that.

I had exactly the same training as in this clip when I was in my high school long fist class. The funny thing was, the day when I cross trained the WC system, I was not allowed to twist my body like this. Even today, I still don't know how to integrate long fist and WC together. Both arts are just so different.
Our foundational training in White Crane has similarities to this. For a time I trained kenpo at the same time I was training white crane. In kenpo, we would sit in square horse and punch to the front, keeping the shoulders squared to the front. I tended to rotate into the punch because of my crane training, but my teachers would tell me not to. Then, in white crane class, Sifu would tell me to rotate farther than I was doing. The kenpo influence was keeping me from rotating far enough. The two methods did simply contradict each other. Consistency is important in training, and methods that are built on a foundation opposite to each other create conflicts in consistency. Some things should not be mixed, or should not be trained together. You want to drive from city A to city B? There are multiple routes. Pick one and stay on it until to get there. Otherwise you get halfway there, decide you dont like the scenery so you turn around and go back to the starting point and begin again on a different highway. And they you change your mind again. You never get to city B. Pick a route and stay on it until you get there.
Is this waist turn or hip turn?

My judgement is this is hip turn, the whole torso turns together as a unit, the spine does not twist.
 

JowGaWolf

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this is hip turn, the whole torso turns together as a unit, the spine does not twist.
It's difficult to say, by looking, with this type of punch because you can drive it either way. From a quick glance I can tell that they aren't driving the punch the same way.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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yes, I actually use both methods for generating power but not at the same time. There are certain punches and techniques that are impossible to power sufficiently by using the hips to generate the power. Twisting with my waist allows me to put more body weight into my punch.

For example. This is a basic punch in Jow Ga. There's no way to power this punch by simply twisting the hips.

I personally think that it's good to know both ways. Stand in a horse stance and try to Power a straight punch by using your hips. Then do the same and try to power the punch using your waist.

Now pick up a broom stick or a staff if you have one. Power the swing by turning your hips like you do in person. Then power the swing by using your waist. Waist versus hips to power a punch or a strike is not an either or choice for me. The waist is more powerful because it engages a larger set of muscles. It produces a heavier hit but not necessarily a more powerful one as that requires the ability to tie other power generators with it.
You gave a better description than I did. Thanks for this. I knew I wasnt the only one, I just dont see it very often.
 

windwalker099

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Our foundational training in White Crane has similarities to this. For a time I trained kenpo at the same time I was training white crane. In kenpo, we would sit in square horse and punch to the front, keeping the shoulders squared to the front. I tended to rotate into the punch because of my crane training, but my teachers would tell me not to. Then, in white crane class, Sifu would tell me to rotate farther than I was doing. The kenpo influence was keeping me from rotating far enough. The two methods did simply contradict each other. Consistency is important in training, and methods that are built on a foundation opposite to each other create conflicts in consistency. Some things should not be mixed, or should not be trained together. You want to drive from city A to city B? There are multiple routes. Pick one and stay on it until to get there. Otherwise you get halfway there, decide you dont like the scenery so you turn around and go back to the starting point and begin again on a different highway. And they you change your mind again. You never get to city B. Pick a route and stay on it until you get there.

My judgement is this is hip turn, the whole torso turns together as a unit, the spine does not twist.


While it looks similar it's quite different....In TWC

44366-19355-45-horse2.jpg


The waist turn is practiced with what we called 45簞 horse,,practiced in what what is called triangle in and out.

Initially, this is done with hands on the waist as shown, later done using the four basic hands.
practice with triangle in and out,, a basic stepping pattern.

1674234756225.jpeg
 
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