The truth on Self-Defense and TaijiQuan / Tai Chi Chuan

[Old Happy Tiger]

Many people out there think Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) is not effective for self defense. There is a few reasons why. One reason, is their own instructor was not trained in real world defensive applications from the form (and when I say “form” applies to the three main family style of Chen, Yang and Wu). Some people find it hard to believe, but it is true that some instructors out there were never taught Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) and self-defensive applications…. To be clear, there is nothing wrong with people practicing Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) for health reasons (I am one of them) but not knowing how to apply real world self-defensive applications they are only learn “half” of what they are practicing.

Younger MMA fighters out there, love to see Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) practitioners get beaten up on YouTube because again, those Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) practitioners never learned or practiced Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) applications in a real world sparring environment. It’s also sad to say that some Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) practitioners are not even taught push hands or even weapon sets by their instructors. And again, there is many instructors out there that were never shown by their own Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) instructors that taught them (for whatever reason). Some instructors may “hold back” all of that information regardless if it limits a student experience as well.

I learned Yang style Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) from two instructors from direct Yang lineage. One instructor, knew push hands and would show the class with another instructor, but that is all they would not have the class practice it. And the same with self-defense applications and weapons. My other instructor, was VERY into showing real world self-defense applications, also practicing the form the “old way” taking individual movements from the form and practicing, not just from beginning to end of the form. Also holding them for health benefits like Qi-Gong (Chi Kung).

I’ve actually used Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) in the past to defend myself, more than one time in my life. Would I enter a MMA ring and go toe to toe with someone? No I would not… But to get some distance between me an attacker, or to redirect an attacker applying an application, I would do it again. I’m am not a “tough guy” and I don’t go around trying get into fights out there, I will tend to avoid them all together. But from what I was taught, and what I have done in the past defending myself, I know that Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) does work in self-defense applications.

Thank You for reading my post today.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Can you provide any link to a video that shows some self-defense application examples?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Can you provide any link to a video that shows some self-defense application examples?

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Respectfully, the video content creator that you posted doesn't practice Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan). He regularly makes flaming and condescending videos just to increase his YouTube monetization and he likes to try to anger people. He'll do the same in regards to 98% of the styles that are posted here in the forum regularly.

In the video he is claiming that Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) is basic wrestling, it's not. If he stated that Wu family style Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) had some locks and throws which made it a bit different than other Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) styles, I would agree with that.

Like I stated in my post, I wouldn't get into any fight against a MMA fighter using just Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan), but would 100% use an application, just to get some distance, or to redirect an attacker.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Respectfully, the video content creator that you posted doesn't practice Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan). He regularly makes flaming and condescending videos just to increase his YouTube monetization and he likes to try to anger people.

It's true that Ramsey is not a Tai Chi practitioner, but you are misinterpreting his intent if you think that he is flaming Tai Chi or being condescending or trying to anger Tai Chi practitioners by comparing Tai Chi to fundamental wrestling.

When Ramsey calls Tai Chi wrestling he intends that as praise. He (rightly) considers wrestling to be one of the most useful and effective martial arts out there. He has spoken in the past about his encounter with an older Tai Chi practitioner who thrashed him soundly in sparring and he has given credit to Tai Chi on several occasions for one or two of his favorite techniques that he likes to use.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

It's true that Ramsey is not a Tai Chi practitioner, but you are misinterpreting his intent if you think that he is flaming Tai Chi or being condescending or trying to anger Tai Chi practitioners by comparing Tai Chi to fundamental wrestling.

When Ramsey calls Tai Chi wrestling he intends that as praise. He (rightly) considers wrestling to be one of the most useful and effective martial arts out there. He has spoken in the past about his encounter with an older Tai Chi practitioner who thrashed him soundly in sparring and he has given credit to Tai Chi on several occasions for one or two of his favorite techniques that he likes to use.

Thank You for your reply and insight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Respectfully, the video content creator that you posted doesn't practice Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan). He regularly makes flaming and condescending videos just to increase his YouTube monetization and he likes to try to anger people. He'll do the same in regards to 98% of the styles that are posted here in the forum regularly.

In the video he is claiming that Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) is basic wrestling, it's not. If he stated that Wu family style Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) had some locks and throws which made it a bit different than other Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) styles, I would agree with that.

Like I stated in my post, I wouldn't get into any fight against a MMA fighter using just Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan), but would 100% use an application, just to get some distance, or to redirect an attacker.

I haven't watched the video yet, but he's actually a big fan of tai chi. There's definitely arts he's not a fan of, but tai chi isn't one of them.

 

[Flying Crane]

Has Ramsey Dewey ever trained taiji in any form or for any significant period of time? From the things he says in his video, it seems to me that he has not, but if anyone knows otherwise, that would be helpful.

I would say that calling taiji “basic wrestling” is inaccurate. It seems to me that he is recognizing some techniques common to both methods, but that isn’t the same as the one being essentially the other.

From my very limited understanding of taiji (about ten years of mostly Chen family derived Huan-yin of Feng lineage, and some Sun and a bit of Yang as well, that always took a backseat to my White Crane training) I would say it is more grappling/chin-na than it is striking, but striking certainly exists within it. But the approach to training and the goals of the training are very different from wrestling, so to equate it to such really simply misses the mark.

My biggest criticism of Mr. Ramsey’s video is that he is a fellow who hasn’t trained taiji, but is trying to tell his viewers what taiji is, based on his observation of some similar techniques. Quite frankly, he is out of his element and is in no position to be trying to pass himself off as someone knowledgeable about taiji. And that isn’t even getting into the fact that there are numerous taiji methods including the main family methods and some derivatives, that are not all the same thing. Taiji isn’t a single method that has one approach to training.

Mr. Ramsey should stick to what he knows and not try to “educate” his viewers about that which he does not know.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

I haven't watched the video yet, but he's actually a big fan of tai chi. There's definitely arts he's not a fan of, but tai chi isn't one of them.

Understood, I wanted to post my real world experiences with Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) just to share with other in this form.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would say that calling taiji “basic wrestling” is inaccurate. It seems to me that he is recognizing some techniques common to both methods, but that isn’t the same as the one being essentially the other.

Oh you can certainly find a ton of differences between Tai Chi and wrestling. I posted the video not for Ramsey's analysis of Tai Chi as a whole, but because he shows a number of applications which do exist in Tai Chi and are verifiably effective. If you search YouTube for "Tai Chi applications for self defense", you'll get a lot of teachers who do not appear to have any actual fight experience and it shows in their demonstrations. (I could probably find an actual Tai Chi practitioner with real fight experience showing solid applications if I searched long enough, but it would probably take a while. Ramsey's video was quicker to find.)

 

[mograph]

Here's Ian Sinclair demonstrating his Tai Chi.
Keep the sound on: he narrates, and praises his partner and the school of his partner.

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Has Ramsey Dewey ever trained taiji in any form or for any significant period of time? From the things he says in his video, it seems to me that he has not, but if anyone knows otherwise, that would be helpful.

I would say that calling taiji “basic wrestling” is inaccurate. It seems to me that he is recognizing some techniques common to both methods, but that isn’t the same as the one being essentially the other.

From my very limited understanding of taiji (about ten years of mostly Chen family derived Huan-yin of Feng lineage, and some Sun and a bit of Yang as well, that always took a backseat to my White Crane training) I would say it is more grappling/chin-na than it is striking, but striking certainly exists within it. But the approach to training and the goals of the training are very different from wrestling, so to equate it to such really simply misses the mark.

My biggest criticism of Mr. Ramsey’s video is that he is a fellow who hasn’t trained taiji, but is trying to tell his viewers what taiji is, based on his observation of some similar techniques. Quite frankly, he is out of his element and is in no position to be trying to pass himself off as someone knowledgeable about taiji. And that isn’t even getting into the fact that there are numerous taiji methods including the main family methods and some derivatives, that are not all the same thing. Taiji isn’t a single method that has one approach to training.

Mr. Ramsey should stick to what he knows and not try to “educate” his viewers about that which he does not know.

My experiences in Yang Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) came from two instructors, one who was directly under Cheng Man-Cheng (who is under direct Yang family lineage) and was first generation to teach Tai Chi Chuan (TaijiQuan) in the U.S.A., both long and short form more for health which I enjoyed (and still enjoy the short form). My other instructor, was under Chang Yiu-Chun again from directly Yang lineage and is the reason why my instuctor knew and taught the actual fighting applications, as his instructor's instructor was Yang Shou-Hou.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh you can certainly find a ton of differences between Tai Chi and wrestling. I posted the video not for Ramsey's analysis of Tai Chi as a whole, but because he shows a number of applications which do exist in Tai Chi and are verifiably effective. If you search YouTube for "Tai Chi applications for self defense", you'll get a lot of teachers who do not appear to have any actual fight experience and it shows in their demonstrations. (I could probably find an actual Tai Chi practitioner with real fight experience showing solid applications if I searched long enough, but it would probably take a while. Ramsey's video was quicker to find.)

Fair enough. The problem is, he isn’t a taiji guy and hasn’t developed his skills through the taiji methodologies. So it’s just a guy who happens to recognize a few techniques and applications in common.

This then becomes little different from the arguments that others put forth and are typically received with derision, where they say “see, my style of XYZ works, here is a video of an MMA guy doing this move in a fight, and if you cross your eyes and look at it sideways you will see that we have that same move in one of our forms, so there is proof that my system works”. I personally find it to be a poor way of finding proof on video to support an idea, regardless of what camp is putting it forth.

For the record, I am not of the camp that believes if something cannot be found on YouTube, then it does not exist. Can’t show an example with a video? That’s fine with me. I understand that most of what happens in life is not captured on video and posted on YouTube for the world to gawk at. I have no problem with that.

I also understand that the “taiji” most people do is dismal as a fighting method. I also understand that there are people who can fight effectively using actual taiji (not an MMA interpretation of a few techniques found in common between the methods), but those people are far fewer than the former. I also understand that we may not be able to find “proof” of their abilities on YouTube. I am not alarmed by that.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Fair enough. The problem is, he isn’t a taiji guy and hasn’t developed his skills through the taiji methodologies. So it’s just a guy who happens to recognize a few techniques and applications in common.

This then becomes little different from the arguments that others put forth and are typically received with derision, where they say “see, my style of XYZ works, here is a video of an MMA guy doing this move in a fight, and if you cross your eyes and look at it sideways you will see that we have that same move in one of our forms, so there is proof that my system works”. I personally find it to be a poor way of finding proof on video to support an idea, regardless of what camp is putting it forth.

For the record, I am not of the camp that believes if something cannot be found on YouTube, then it does not exist. Can’t show an example with a video? That’s fine with me. I understand that most of what happens in life is not captured on video and posted on YouTube for the world to gawk at. I have no problem with that.

I also understand that the “taiji” most people do is dismal as a fighting method. I also understand that there are people who can fight effectively using actual taiji (not an MMA interpretation of a few techniques found in common between the methods), but those people are far fewer than the former. I also understand that we may not be able to find “proof” of their abilities on YouTube. I am not alarmed by that.

I'd say that Ramsey's understanding goes a little beyond just recognizing some techniques. From watching other videos he's made on the topic, I'd say he also understands a fair amount regarding the concepts and principles behind the art. Honestly, the fact that he can point to steps in a Tai Chi form and identify effective techniques that they translate into puts him a step ahead of most Tai Chi practitioners.

I'm not a Tai Chi practitioner myself, but I've had a little bit of exposure to the art and I sometimes use some of its movements, training methods, or portions of a form as an exercise or to help me work on polishing certain attributes or body mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsey does the same.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'd say that Ramsey's understanding goes a little beyond just recognizing some techniques. From watching other videos he's made on the topic, I'd say he also understands a fair amount regarding the concepts and principles behind the art. Honestly, the fact that he can point to steps in a Tai Chi form and identify effective techniques that they translate into puts him a step ahead of most Tai Chi practitioners.

I'm not a Tai Chi practitioner myself, but I've had a little bit of exposure to the art and I sometimes use some of its movements, training methods, or portions of a form as an exercise or to help me work on polishing certain attributes or body mechanics. I wouldn't be surprised if Ramsey does the same.

He understand the concepts and principles behind taiji? I confess, I know nothing of Mr. Ramsey’s background so if he has actually studied it with a qualified instructor, if anyone knows this, feel free to correct me. But again, based on his comments on the video, it seems to me that he has not.

If that is true that he has not, then I think it’s a long shot to say he understands the concepts and principles of taiji. Recognizing some techniques that the methods have in common is not the same thing. That is actually very easy to do. Parting the Horse’s Mane actually is similar to a very powerful punch that we have in white crane. But I don’t take that similarity as evidence that I understand taiji. Similarities are easy to find. It simply means that you know your own art and you can see where many arts have things in common. That is basic.

I’m not trying to put taiji on a pedestal and pretend that it is a mystical, difficult to understand method that can give you magical powers. Not at all. In fact, I believe it is probably much more mundane and straight forward than most of us realize. But it does take deliberate study in order to have the background and context to understand how it fits together, which can be quite different from other methods. It isn’t in the similarity or difference in the shape of a technique. That is surface-level stuff. The differences lie in how the foundation is built which guides how application is done and the whole approach to combat. That is what makes two methods different, even when they have many techniques in common.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is definitely part of it but I find his applications to be rudimentary. In any case he is better than 98% of the Tai Chi Chuan practitioners I have had hands on. There are very skilled individuals but they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Has Ramsey Dewey ever trained taiji in any form or for any significant period of time? From the things he says in his video, it seems to me that he has not, but if anyone knows otherwise, that would be helpful.

I would say that calling taiji “basic wrestling” is inaccurate. It seems to me that he is recognizing some techniques common to both methods, but that isn’t the same as the one being essentially the other.

From my very limited understanding of taiji (about ten years of mostly Chen family derived Huan-yin of Feng lineage, and some Sun and a bit of Yang as well, that always took a backseat to my White Crane training) I would say it is more grappling/chin-na than it is striking, but striking certainly exists within it. But the approach to training and the goals of the training are very different from wrestling, so to equate it to such really simply misses the mark.

My biggest criticism of Mr. Ramsey’s video is that he is a fellow who hasn’t trained taiji, but is trying to tell his viewers what taiji is, based on his observation of some similar techniques. Quite frankly, he is out of his element and is in no position to be trying to pass himself off as someone knowledgeable about taiji. And that isn’t even getting into the fact that there are numerous taiji methods including the main family methods and some derivatives, that are not all the same thing. Taiji isn’t a single method that has one approach to training.

Mr. Ramsey should stick to what he knows and not try to “educate” his viewers about that which he does not know.

I agree with this sentiment as well. This is like self education that was informed by his other skills and sparring experiences. There is no replacement for quality in person instruction.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

He understand the concepts and principles behind taiji? I confess, I know nothing of Mr. Ramsey’s background so if he has actually studied it with a qualified instructor, if anyone knows this, feel free to correct me. But again, based on his comments on the video, it seems to me that he has not.

He trains/trained taiji under someone named Master Yu Dao Shui (Taijiquan, Jiangsu Province, China)
Edit: Tagging @Wing Woo Gar as well

 

[Flying Crane]

He trains/trained taiji under someone named Master Yu Dao Shui (Taijiquan, Jiangsu Province, China)
Edit: Tagging @Wing Woo Gar as well

Interesting. That isn’t the impression he give by what he states in the video. But if so, well there it is. At least it’s something. Any idea for how long he studied, and with what kind of focus and emphasis? Was it just a dabbling, or did he give it a real go?

The reason I make the distinction is that dabbling in Taiji give you very little. I studied for over a decade, but it was never my primary focus. Ultimately I never felt that I really understood it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When Ramsey calls Tai Chi wrestling he intends that as praise.

If you say that Taiji as Taiji wrestling, most Taiji people may not think it's a praise.

I believe Taiji is more a striking art than a wrestling art. Taiji have more striking tools than wrestling tools.

The Taiji

- advance hammer = jab.
- fair lady work on shuttle = cross.
- left/right striking tiger = hook.
- snake extend tone = uppercut.
- turn around hammer = back fist.
- left/right separate leg = front kick.
- cross leg = reverse side kick.
- lotus kick = outside crescent kick.
- hammer under elbow = knee strike.
- ...