Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years

[pdg]

@Steven Lee

So you are saying that the founders of the original 5 kwans.....lied about their lineage and were actually trained in Gwonbub?

He must be.

Personal testimony obviously means nothing - plus they didn't post any videos on YouTube as evidence.

 

[Steven Lee]

As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.

There are no videos to post on Taekwondo origin. There are photos, writings, screenshots.

What did 5 original Taekwondo Gwan say? That they learned Karate? No, according to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub. Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago looks different from Kung Fu & looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate because Karate probably copied it in 1922. Also, I don't see anything about 5 original Taekwondo Gwans saying about Karate other than that they sometimes called Taekwondo Tangsu/Toudi, which is from linguistic influence. I can't find "we learned Karate" from Korean Taekwondo gyms created after YMCA Gwonbub Club.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Korean street fighting games are a bonus fact. I cover broad topics in traditional Korean sports. As for this place, I'm focusing on the origin of Taekwondo. In 1946 & before that, as I quoted a book "gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History", Taekwondo was called Gwonbub. Also, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub pictures clearly resemble today's Taekwondo including Taekwondo rotation punch, Knife Hand stance, blocking kick, front kick. Some people in the first generation of Taekwondo called it Toudi/Tangsu, but it's a linguistic influence from Japanese occupation. (Those people all learned Taekwondo from Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate looks similar because they probably copied Korean Gwonbub while they were inventing Karate from Toudi by copying Korean Gwonbub & Korean Breaking/Tameshiwari.) I also showed a screenshot calling Taekyun (it has 2 sets of games, 1 is kicking game with throwing, another part Yetbub is street fighting with punches) as Judo. Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I have Gwonbub pictures from 300 years ago. What more proofs do we need?

You've not made the link, actually, from what I can see. So, something called Gwonbub existed at least 300 years ago, and has some similarities to TKD. What I teach has some (not many) visual similarities to Sambo, and they are entirely unrelated unless you go back a few generations of arts and take a very thin connection.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As for Taekwondo's earliest gyms, you mean original 2 Kwans, Changmugwan & Pasaenggwan. From my sources, everyone learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club. Even the Taekwondo people who called their art Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence learned from Byungin Yoon, according to my sources. Also, there should be physical evidences for YMCA Gwonbub club (1946) & Chosunyeonmugwan Gwonbub Club, paperwork & whatnot.

There are no videos to post on Taekwondo origin. There are photos, writings, screenshots.

What did 5 original Taekwondo Gwan say? That they learned Karate? No, according to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub. Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago looks different from Kung Fu & looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate because Karate probably copied it in 1922. Also, I don't see anything about 5 original Taekwondo Gwans saying about Karate other than that they sometimes called Taekwondo Tangsu/Toudi, which is from linguistic influence. I can't find "we learned Karate" from Korean Taekwondo gyms created after YMCA Gwonbub Club.

Why do you keep repeating "by linguistic influence"? You made that point (several times) 3 or 4 posts ago?

 

[Steven Lee]

I keep saying linguistic influence because some people claim Taekwondo is from Karate just because some 1st generation Taekwondo people called Taekwondo Toudi/Tangsu. That's not a proof because it was a linguistic influence. All those 1st generation learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon before they changed the name to Taekwondo.

The http addresses ending in jpg, png are image link files. The reddish brown parts are the links. Here are some bigger broader links.

Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur

Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur

Bear Sports Topics | Facebook

Here are some specific links.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png

https://imgur.com/dP4XxxU.jpg

m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69

https://i.imgur.com/MuXGNPv.png

https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png

I feel like I'm fighting alone against the whole world in many issues (including fighting for the truth in sports), particularly not doing what I don't have to nor want to. I really could use some help.

Korean Gwonbub existed 300 years ago & it looks similar to today's Taekwondo & Karate. Looks different from Kung Fu. The name & the sport Gwonbub existed in Korea even in the early 20th century. The 1st generation Taekwondo people learned this Gwonbub at that Gwonbub club. Hence, Taekwondo has lineage to the early 20th century's Gwonbub, which has lineage to the Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago due to the same name & visual similarities.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Images of old Korean writing aren't really sources saying TKD (which isn't as old as what that's an image of) is descended from that art as opposed to Karate. That's a significant point. You state absolutes, and provide evidence that might be meaningful (I can't read it, and the stylized pictures don't provide much strength of evidence), but is far from conclusive.

 

[Steven Lee]

Kata is probably a Karate influence, but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but from Korean Gwonbub which existed since 300 years ago even up to the early 20th century as the well documented history of Korean Gwonbub proves. People who learned this Gwonbub created Taekwondo. Hence, Taekwondo is from Korean Gwonbub, not from Karate. Kata culture was probably adopted from Karate, but Taekwondo moves themselves are from Korean Gwonbub. Also, Breaking is not from KArate. Korean had it as a power circus performance art; Karate copied it.

 

[Steven Lee]

It is conclusive. The writings & screenshots I showed explicitly say that Taekwondo's 1st generation people learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Hence, it's a conclusive fact that Taekwondo is from Korean Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate probably copied Gwonbub. Also, it's a conclusive fact that Korean had a sport called Gwonbub documented 300 years ago. It's also conclusive how Taekwondo (with the root Korean Gwonbub in the early 20th century) & Korean Gwonbub 300 years ago look similar. It's conclusive that Taekwondo is from Gwonbub, not from Karate. The only question is what this Gwonbub is, and Korea had the same name sport with similar visual traits 300 years ago. That's good enough proof without moving goal post fallacy.

 

[CB Jones]

I showed explicitly say that Taekwondo's 1st generation people learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon.

This is incorrect.

Gwonbub very well could have existed but it was not the origin of Taekwondo.

Taekwondo originated from the Korean karate kwans that unified under the name of Taekwondo

 

[Steven Lee]

Taekwondo didn't start by Karate Gwans/Gyms in South Korea uniting under the name Taekwondo. It's a misconception from calling Gwonbub as Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence. Those were not Karate Kwans. All those Gwans learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon according to my sources. They were not Karate Kwans but called themselves Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence. Before that, they were called Gwonbub; they learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Then, they called themselves Tangsu/Toudi; then they changed their name to Taekwondo.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, you're entitled to believe whatever silly nonsense you like.
We're also entitled to laugh at you.

 

[Steven Lee]

In m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69 quoting the book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History" (there should be many other people's testimony as well as physical proofs like paperwork):
"YMCA권법부에서 파생되어 나온 관은 홍정표 씨가 먼저 무도원으로 시작했다가 내가 맡아 이름을 바꾼 강덕원 외에 이남석, 김순배 씨가 이끈 창무관, 이동주 씨가 대구에 만든 강무관 등이 있습니다. 강무관 출신에는 현 조증덕 씨가 생존해 계시죠. 그 제자 중의 한 사람이 택견협회를 이끌고 있는 이용복 씨 입니다. 또 이남석 씨의 제자가 서대문에서 충무관을 열었던 기억이 납니다. 마산인가 어디에서 성균관대학교 주장을 하던 사람이 도장을 열었는데, 관 명칭은 무언인지 잘 기억이 나지 않지만 권재화 씨가 이곳 출신이었던 것으로 기억됩니다."

"국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다."

"YMCA 권법부는 창무관(彰武館)과 강덕원의 파생관을 만들어내는데"

Translation:
"The Gwans that came out of YMCA Gwonbub Club are the following. Jungpyo Hong opened Mudowon; I took over & changed its name to Gangdukwon. Namsuk Lee & Soonbae Kim's Changmugwan. Dongju Lee's Gangmugwan, etc. Namseok's Lee's student opened Choongmugwan. Sungkyunkwan University's captain also opened a Dojang/Dojo.", "Honghi Choi, the founder of ITF Taekwondo also visited YMCA Gwonbub Club time to time.", "YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan & Gangdeokwon's Pasaenggwan".

 

[Steven Lee]

My sources are reputable in all topics whatever you pretend to be the truth. My facts should be the official facts in all topics.

I just need objective honest people & all the respectable scholars in the world siding with me. I don't have to try hard persuading non-scholars or dishonest people in any topic.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My source, who was actually there, says you're a silly git. Well, that's not an exact quote, but it wouldn't be polite to repeat what he actually said.

 

[Steven Lee]

My sources are reputable respectable sources in any topic including Subak, Taekwondo's origin, Breaking's origin (& history), Korean street fighting games, whatever topic. Also, most of the references I quote are old references, which means greater credibility. Taekwondo is from YMCA Gwonbub Club, not from Karate. Karate copied Korea's 300 years old Gwonbub moves; Karate also copied Breaking/Tameshiwari which was never from martial art but performance art power circus self-created by trial & error (& power motion knowhow from Korean wrestling). I have reputable data, records on any topic; the question should be only whether my references are reputable or not.

 

[Dirty Dog]

 

[Steven Lee]

Hitting dog is not fighting dog necessarily. Fighting dog is not necessarily martial art. Using martial art on a dog is not necessarily Karate. Mas Oyama breaking dog's neck has nothing to do with Karate if you are trying to imply that. Breaking Game existed before Karate. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate by copying Breaking Game & hard frontal hitting (Yong stacking speed & power, shoulder push in frontal hand strike) from Korean circus. I'm facts in any topic with reputable sources & impeccable logic. You laughing doesn't change logic nor sources.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Your translation does not remotely match mine.
For example, what it actually says about General Choi is that he visited the YMCA's legal office.

 

[pdg]

This thread is absolute comedy genius, I wish I'd thought of it first.

 

[Steven Lee]

However you pretend my translation to be incorrect, many other people can corroborate my translation forever in history, now to the end of time. "국제태권도연맹을 창설한 고(故) 최홍희 씨도 가끔 YMCA권법부에 들렀습니다." For the record, this sentence nowhere says legal office.

I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources then siding with the truth.