Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I feel like I'm fighting alone against the whole world in many issues (including fighting for the truth in sports), particularly not doing what I don't have to nor want to. I really could use some help.

Why is this important enough to fight the whole world on? Does it matter where TKD came from?
 

Dirty Dog

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However you pretend my translation to be incorrect, many other people can corroborate my translation forever in history, now to the end of time. "窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟." For the record, this sentence nowhere says legal office.

I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources then siding with the truth.

That's just the thing, see. You're wrong. Completely. It's utter nonsense.
I am siding with the truth. That's what bothers you.
 

Xue Sheng

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In m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69 quoting the book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History" (there should be many other people's testimony as well as physical proofs like paperwork):
"YMCA窷貒賱 窵 刷 諟潰 諡渠潺 曰 湊 諤∫ 渠 諻篨 穈 賄 渠到, 篧諻 刷 渠 麆趟炭窵, 渠鴥 刷 窱科 諤 穈諡湊 桿 蛟. 穈諡湊 黺 魽域 刷 魽渣 窸鴥. 篞 鴗 禺 窶秒諝 渠窸 渥拘陬 . 渠到 到 穈 諡賄 黺拘炭窵 渥 篣域蛙 拘. 諤域資 渠 梓窵窱 鴥潰伊 禺 伊 渥, 窵 諈儦原 諡渥賄賄 篣域蛙 鴔 鴔諤 窷秒 刷 湊陶 黺渥 窶潺 篣域蛟拘."

"窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟."

"YMCA 窷貒賱 麆趟炭窵(敶唳郎擗)窸 穈 窵 諤木渠渠"

Translation:
"The Gwans that came out of YMCA Gwonbub Club are the following. Jungpyo Hong opened Mudowon, I took over & changed its name to Gangdukwon. Soonbae Kim's Changmugwan. Dongju Lee's Gangmugwan, etc. Namseok's Lee's student opened Choongmugwan.", "Honghi Choi, the founder of ITF Taekwondo also visited YMCA Gwonbub Club time to time.", "YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan & Gangdeokwon's Pasaenggwan".

I have no horse in this race, but I doubt the accuracy of your translation. What is your background in the Korean Language and translation

I do not speak Korean or read it and I know Google Translate can make some pretty outrageous errors with Chinese translations but it does not come close to what you are saying here the above Korean is stating.
 
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Steven Lee

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Truth is important to fight for, especially if it has to do with profiting or damaging my label, background. I don't want any injustice to the wealth, culture, history, reputation of Korea (or me). I just need honest objective people evaluating logic (as opposed to fallacies), translations, references, sources, then siding with the truth.

Yeah, people who can read Korean will corroborate me forever in history, from now to the end of the time. My translations are good. Also, the only issue should be evaluating logic, translation, sources, not your wish or derision. I don't want to nor have to give up anything mine or Korea's, especially if it is about the truth in any topic.
 
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Steven Lee

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I'm a Korean who speaks Korean. The translation is right. You can show the Korean words & my translation to any Korean. They will say it is the correct translation smooth enough. I skipped the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words.
 

Dirty Dog

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I'm a Korean who speaks Korean. The translation is right. You can show the Korean words & my translation to any Korean. They will say it is the correct translation smooth enough. I skipped the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words.

I did. They didn't.
You're really just making yourself look silly.
 
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Steven Lee

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Then they are lying. My translation is accurate except that I'm skipping the names of the cities to avoid bombarding Korean words around.

"YMCA窷貒賱 窵", " 刷 諟潰 諡渠潺 ", "湊 諤∫ 渠 諻篨 穈", "渠到, 篧諻 刷 渠 麆趟炭窵", "渠鴥 刷 窱科 諤 穈諡湊 ", "梓窵窱 鴥潰伊 禺 伊 渥".

"窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟."

"YMCA 窷貒賱 麆趟炭窵(敶唳郎擗)窸 穈 窵 諤木渠渠"

That's what I translated. Either you or that Korean is distorting the truth by saying lies or by not saying details. I didn't translate the whole paragraph; I translated only the relevant parts to avoid forcing people to read Korean sounds.

Also, "窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟.", 窱原窷圉完 = ITF Taekwondo, 麆趣欠 = created, 窸() = dead, 黖 刺 = Honghi Choi, 穈 = sometimes, YMCA窷貒賱 = to YMCA Gwonbub club, 月蛟 = visited. No mention of legal office.
 

Dirty Dog

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Did they say what it actually says?

I didn't text the entire thing. I'm not going to spend that much time typing on a Korean keyboard. I just sent the line about General Choi, which apparently actually says he visited a lawyer.
 
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Steven Lee

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I translated after shortening the paragraph to the relevant minimum cause you don't want to hear words like Korean cities, who did what, etc. Just pure summary on which Gwan was opened by whom who came from YMCA Gwonbub Club. You have to agree, these are new information to you. Not well known. I'm adding much to the level of knowledge, references, events, history in these fields.

Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate. They agree they learned Gwonbub from YMCA Gwonbub Club. I'm facts in anything including Breaking/Tameshiwari (giant conspiracy pretending many sources try to steal Karate's accomplishment instead of Karate stealing from preexisting sports), Taekwondo (Kwonbub), Subak (clear pictures & writings) or whatever topic. All my sources say the same thing; they are all reputable sources. Correct conclusion should be based only on evaluating logic, references, sources, not your wish or wishful derision.

Regarding Honghi Choi, no mention of legal office in the sentence I showed nor in the sentences after. "窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟. 窸 穈 窸 黺渥渥 儦窶 鴔鴥. 黖 刷 YMCA 渠 窶 窱科. 鴘 窱科 潰 刮篣圉未 鮈 穈 到 諤 蛟. " The part about Honghi Choi was this "窱原窷圉完 麆趣欠 窸() 黖 刺 穈 YMCA窷貒賱 月蛟." Ridiculous this is stuck on the level of argument arguing the correct translation. Any Korean can verify the correct translation.
 
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Steven Lee

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I use tons of sources (all reputable by academic standards) in many traditional Korean sports topics. Even for the Taekwondo origin matter's sources, I use medieval Korean Muyedobotongji (300 years old martial art textbook used in the military) Gwonbub pictures as a source & a Korean grandmaster's book (which other Korean Taekwondo founders should agree & there should be physical proofs like paperwork) & an old newspaper calling Taekyun as Judo, Jiujitsu due to linguistic influence from Japanese occupation of Korea.
 

Dirty Dog

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Taekwondo founders don't say they are from Karate.

Actually, they do. Pretty much all the founders were trained in Shotokan Karate, with some additional influence from Northern Chinese arts and Judo.

Let's look at what the founders actually said about their training:
Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan.
Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan.
Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu.
Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo.
Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan.

Now, it's true that YOON, Byung In did teach at the YMCA, and he did call his club the Kwon Bop Club. But he didn't train any of the other founders. He was known to be particularly close with CHUN, Sang Sup. They did travel and train together, but as peers and friends, not as teacher and student.

The original forms taught prior to the unification? The same forms taught in Shotokan schools, even today.

Really, you're just deluding yourself. Do you honestly think all the founders, who never unanimously agreed on anything, unanimously agreed to join in some giant conspiracy to pretend their training was in Karate? And that they somehow convinced thousands of students who were there from the start (and many of whom are still alive today) to join this conspiracy?

Do you want to tell us about the time you were abducted by space aliens, too?


tenor.gif
 

pdg

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Mas Oyama breaking dog's neck has nothing to do with Karate if you are trying to imply that. Breaking Game existed before Karate. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate by copying Breaking Game & hard frontal hitting (Yong stacking speed & power, shoulder push in frontal hand strike) from Korean circus

So nobody brought that up before you.

Is this supposed to be something about the Japanese stealing Korean techniques?

Because, y'know, Oyama wasn't Japanese until 1964.
 
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Steven Lee

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Kata in Taekwondo is probably Karate influence, but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub. According to my sources, they all learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Also, Byungin Yoon was trained in Gwonbub, which he taught in the name Gwonbub. Byungin Yoon didn't learn Shotokan Karate. According to my sources, Byungin Yoon already was trained in Gwonbub before teaching Gwonbub to Karate students after a fight. What's known for certain is that Byungin Yoon was already trained in Gwonbub before any contact with Karate; Byungin Yoon taught what he called Gwonbub in South Korea.

I wonder if the claim "Chung Do Kwan - LEE, Won Kuk - Shotokan", "Song Moo Kwan - RO, Byung Jik - Shotokan", "Moo Duk Kwan - HWANG, Kee - Tai Chi and Kung Fu", "Ji Do Kwan - CHUN, Sang Sup - Kodokan Judo", "Chang Moo Kwan - YOON, Byung In - Kung Fu and Shotokan" is true. Also, how old are those? After YMCA Gwonbub Club? According to my sources, the earlier Taekwondo people learned from Byungin Yoon. There should be testimonies & paperwork. Also, if some of them did say they trained Karate (Tangsu/Toudi), that's probably from mistaking Gwonbub to be Karate when it is actually a traditional Korean Gwonbub. Also, even if some of them did learn Karate, that doesn't mean they didn't learn Gwonbub to teach Korean Gwonbub. My source says Taekwondo's earlier era comes from Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub. They could have taken swimming lessons as well, but it doesn't count towards Taekwondo. Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate? Byungin Yoon didn't say it. Where's your source of such speech reference? If you are claiming those founders learned Shotokan Karate because they learned from Byungin Yoon & Byungin Yoon was trained in Shotokan Karate, you are mistaken. None of them learned Karate but Gwonbub. This includes Cheolheui Park who opened Gangdeokwon after the Korean war. The book "Gwan/Gym Oriented Retrospect to Taekwondo Creation History" was written by him in 2008 (the testimony was from 2005).
 
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Steven Lee

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I get a lot of bullshits from many different kinds of people with different agenda. I was just taking a pick what it could be about.

Oyama not becoming Japanese until 1964 is irrelevant for his accomplishment, introducing Breaking/Tameshiwari to Karate which didn't have Breaking Game nor hard frontal hand strike (Yongryuk stacking speed & power, shoulder-push for hard frontal hand strike).
 
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pdg

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What possible agenda could I have, really?

It's you, as an army of one, who appears to have an agenda and wants everyone to agree with you. Specifically you.

You, and your source(s) that directly contradict the personal testimonies of the involved people.

You, that claim the founders of the kwans were either lying or mistaken about what they learned and from whom.
 

Dirty Dog

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Kata in Taekwondo is probably Karate influence

Nope. Not probably. IS. Because that's what the founders were taught.

, but Taekwondo itself is not from Karate but Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub.

Not according to YOON, Byung In. According to him, he studied Kung Fu and Shotokan. And he didn't claim to have taught ANY of the founders.

Byungin Yoon didn't learn Shotokan Karate.

According to him, he did. Are you saying he lied about his training?

Which Taekwondo founder said they learned specifically Karate?

All of them that I listed.

Byungin Yoon didn't say it.

Actually, he did.
His primary training was in Kung Fu, and his school was primarily based on this (similar to the Moo Duk Kwan).
 
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Steven Lee

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I'm not talking specifically you. I just get a lot of such bullshits often instead of carefully sorting out evidences.

I don't have an agenda. I just want all facts to be out there & recognized academically.

I am quoting personal testimonies of the involved people, specifically to their own words & their own books written in their own words.

Show me the speech references saying that those Koreans learned Karate. Also, even in such case, Taekwondo was largely involved by Byungin Yoon & his Gwonbub lineage anyway. Taekwondo has Korean Gwonbub lineage.
 
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