Taekwondo curriculum content and teaching methodology

[puunui]

That's my understanding. I'm preparing for a 3rd dan test, having never held any KKW rank before.

If I were you, I would start at kukkiwon 1st dan and just get promoted at the minimum time in grades. You only get one skip dan in your life, and I wouldn't waste it on the low dan ranks. Plus it's better to have all your kukkiwon dan certificates without any huge holes or gaps.

 

[puunui]

It's more record-keeping that way. I'd rather make sure the students pass our requirements and be eligible for both certs than keep tract of 'John has the KKW reqs but not our house ones'.

I don't know about this two sets of curriculum for the same rank within the same school idea. Sounds unworkable to me. If you want to add curriculum, you could do it at the higher dan ranks, where the new material is light, instead of cramming all that stuff in at 1st dan, which is what most instructors try to do.

It's also a small cost issue. The students can save a few bucks by passing up the Korean cert, although certainly they're told it may be a good thing to have later on if they want to continue in TKD and possibly grow a career/lifelong pursuit of it.

You could absorb the cost and pay for the kukkiwon certification fee yourself, if you don't want to pass the cost on to them. Charging $250 for a 1st dan, there is plenty of room for that, even if you wish to bring in kodanja to sit on your examination board.

 

[puunui]

Adults = 16+

Most instructors I know make the children/adult cut off at 13, because it is at that age where the height differential becomes too great if you keep students older than that in with the elementary age students.

 

[dancingalone]

You could absorb the cost and pay for the kukkiwon certification fee yourself, if you don't want to pass the cost on to them. Charging $250 for a 1st dan, there is plenty of room for that, even if you wish to bring in kodanja to sit on your examination board.

That might well be the case. I'm trying to apply business school forecasting techniques to a martial arts school and this has been an interesting exercise in of itself. I'll know for sure after 1 or 2 BB exams. Right now they're only offered 2x a year which makes them special and also somewhat large and cumbersome to run since colored belt tests are offered at the same time. I don't want to be niggardly with our kodanja guests either.

 

[puunui]

Conversion isn't automatic; there is paperwork to be filed by the instructor.

I think it is automatic. You might have to pay a $10 fee to the kukkiwon which also covers cost of the certificate and postage (which is way higher than $10 for those outside of Korea; kukkiwon uses dhl) but that is about it. I had a parent who did it on his own and got the conversion for his son. The instructor doesn't have to do it or approve it either.

 

[puunui]

Right now they're only offered 2x a year which makes them special and also somewhat large and cumbersome to run since colored belt tests are offered at the same time.

You might wish to make poom/dan tests separate from guep level tests. I think that is how most do it, especially if your black belt tests are much longer and more involved than color belt tests. Sounds like you are having fun with all of this though.

What part of texas do you live in, near dallas?

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't want to be niggardly with our kodanja guests either.

Thank you for that! I've learnt a new English word! It's not often that happens these days...

 

[MAist25]

What do you mean when you say "traditional Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do"?

Well Grandmaster Chun originally taught Tang Soo Do. His first school was called the Richard Chun Karate Center. Once the unification of the art came around he started using the name Taekwondo like many other Koreans who brought their arts from Korea. I actually emailed him specifically about this issue of calling what we learn Taekwondo or Tang Soo Do and what he said was that we are practitioners of both.

The color belt forms I learned are the Kicho's, Palgwe's, and Pyung Ahn's. The black belt forms I know are Bassai Dai, Naihanchi Chodan, Koryo So, Koryo Dai, Chinte, and Keumgang. He still teaches all of the Tang Soo Do forms and gives us the option to study the Tang Soo Do forms after we understand the basics of Taekwondo. His organization, the USTA is unique because many of his students went out and opened up Taekwondo schools and many others went out and opened up Tang Soo Do schools. But what he told me is that we are practitioners of both Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo under the Moo Duk Kwan lineage.

 

[dancingalone]

How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan?

I plotted some graphs on that the other night actually. The median time right at 2 years 10 months for adults and it is at 2 years 2 months for children. The difference is interesting considering the curriculum has been up to this point identical. That shall change however for the adults and I'll probably look into increasing the gestation time somehow.

Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable.

Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan. When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.

There is indeed a world of difference between running a commercial school and one where income was not a factor for me at all. I will need to find balance somehow between the two approaches.

 

[puunui]

Thank you for that! I've learnt a new English word! It's not often that happens these days...

A large part of taekwondo philosophy, especially at the higher levels, is about generosity. The english translation of the Kang Duk Won name means "House of Teaching Generosity". The Kang Duk Won was one of the nine kwan that unified under the Kukkiwon banner. Why do you think mastercole and I share information so generously? Answer: Because it was shared so generously with us, without restriction, and we would like to keep the tradition going, at least for one more generation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A large part of taekwondo philosophy, especially at the higher levels, is about generosity. The english translation of the Kang Duk Won name means "House of Teaching Generosity". The Kang Duk Won was one of the nine kwan that unified under the Kukkiwon banner. Why do you think mastercole and I share information so generously? Answer: Because it was shared so generously with us, without restriction, and we would like to keep the tradition going, at least for one more generation.

My former GM had said that his line is Kang Duk Won.

 

[puunui]

My former GM had said that his line is Kang Duk Won.

Was he a generous person?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Was he a generous person?

Yes.

 

[dancingalone]

You might wish to make poom/dan tests separate from guep level tests. I think that is how most do it, especially if your black belt tests are much longer and more involved than color belt tests. Sounds like you are having fun with all of this though.

Yes, I am having a blast.

What part of texas do you live in, near dallas?

Austin or the burbs anyway in Central Texas.

 

[puunui]

Austin or the burbs anyway in Central Texas.

Not far from Dallas, where Nationals/JOs will be held this year. You might wish to stop by, check it out and see what the fuss is all about.

 

[mastercole]

Everyone seems to focus on the organizations, but I am more curious as to what the differences are between individual schools. Two people in the same organization may have radically different approaches to how and what they teach.

So with that in mind,

If you are an instructor:

• what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?

Kukkiwon. Family classes and separate invitation only intense training for young adults.

• What is your curriculum like?

Class curriculum is roughly grouped as: Athletic development / Poomsae / Kwonbop / Kyorugi / Basic skills /. Also occasional introduction to mom-makki (hoshinsul) & some weapons.

• Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?

No

• Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?

I charge a certification fee. 9th geup to 3rd geup do not take a promotion exam. 2nd and 1st geup must take an exam that is practice for the Dan or Poom promotion exam.

• If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?

If they continue training after their promotion, we credit the entire promotion fee back toward tuition, If they stop, we keep the fee and go out for sushi.

• Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?

No

• If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?

No

• Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?

It's not a program, I just introduce students to certain Okinawan weapons and Shinai, I tell them it is just introductory. From Isshin Ryu

• Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?

Mostly just introductory, except for the body movement/avoidance part which is a main feature of training

• Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?

A few evasive and counter skills from boxing. Some Kwonbop skills that are unique to old Jidokwan. Discussion of street smarts.

Some students are invited to do a separate study of Taekkyon, not learning from me, but from the Korean Taekkyon master that lives here. There is no cost for this.

 

[Tswolfman]

• what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like? Kukki Taekwondo we do a 10 minute warm up 10 min basic mental workout 15 main focus physical workout, 15 min Mental workout and finish with a 10 minute cool down / Stretch
• What is your curriculum like? we have poomse ( forms), one steps sparring, Self defense skills, Kicks , Basics and Kicking Drills
• Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs? Yes and no. Yes we have clubs however my studio teaches more arts then just taekwondo ( each is a separate system and belt ranking ) to do more than one art you have to join either out basic or SWAt team plans.
• Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress? yes we charge for tests the only cost that is higher is for the Black belt levels all colored belts are the same.
• If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference? We do not
• Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt? No, 1st poom if over 13 maybe, 16 + maybe if student shows proper maturity
• If you are KKW, do you put black belts on poom students? No
• Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of? Yes, we have 2 they are each seperate arts, Presas Arnis ( Datu Tim Hartman's version of Modern Arnis) and Koryo Gumdo ( Korean Sword )
• Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from? yes, Hapkido, Modern Arnis, Jeet Kun Do, Shin ji Tai Jujitsu, and various other misc. Arts
• Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?Yes see above in addition to some aspects of Shotokan Karate, Shurite Kempo and a few others however i explain where the elements come from why we use them and how they inhance (IMO) our taekwondo.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If you are an instructor:

• what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?
• What is your curriculum like?
• Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?
• Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?
• If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?
• Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?
• If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?
• Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?
• Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?
• Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?

We no longer use the label of TKD, but in regards to KSD;

what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?

Mu Shin Kwan Kong Soo Do. Our classes look very similar to what you would find in an advanced L.E. or military special ops class. No uniforms and mostly 'high speed/low drag' teaching/traning methodology.

What is your curriculum like?

We use a blending of traditional hard core martial arts training and the most advanced self-defense/combatives training that I am currently familar with.

Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?

No. As noted in other threads, we use the Dan/Kyu system because of familiarity but rarely actually wear belts.

Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?

Never charged for a belt test or certification. Don't believe in it.

Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?

No.

Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?

Yes. Baton, edged weapons and firearms. They came from multiple instructor certifications I've gained over the years as well as my actual use and experience in each.

Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?

Solely. Training in martial arts and filtered through over three decades of actual use and experience.

Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?

Yes. Multiple arts and combatives systems.

 

[WMKS Shogun]

Q what type/org taekwondo do you teach and what do your classes look like?
Chang Hon TKD (ITF Forms, no sine wave), classes are divided by age and as much as possible, by rank. Classes range from 1 hour to an hour and a half.

Q What is your curriculum like?
A

1. Form: 1 at each of the 9 colored belt levels, including a memorized interpretation of the forms meaning.
2. Basics: stances, blocks, strikes, kicks - given in Korean and English
3. Combinations: 5 at each belt level, to be memorized so that multiple belt levels can practice at the same time without an instructor having to call out each belt level's combination
4. Situational Self Defense: defense against grabs, holds, throws, as well as how to perform grabs, hold, throw, locks, breakfalls, etc.
5. Terms: Usually Korean commands or terms of martial historical significance
6. Physical fitness requirement: push-ups, crunches, rounds of sparring, running requirement
7. Additional information: required information that does not fit in the terms section

Q Do you use programs like masters clubs and black belt clubs?
A No, not at this time.

Q Do you charge for belt tests, and if so, do the costs escalate as you progress?
A Yes, we charge, and yes the fee increases from $35 for colored belt levels to $50 at brown belt and above, and $125 per Dan Grade, which the fee includes an embroidered belt and a certificate, framed.

Q If you charge more than the organization's fee, what do your students get in return for the difference?
A N/A

Q Do you promote children to first dan and issue them a black belt?
A Has not happened yet, but yes, we would issue a Junior Black Belt, if it was earned.

Q If you are KKW, do you put black belts on pum students?
A N/A

Q Do you have a weapons program, and if so, where did it come from and what does it consist of?
A We do each a few staff forms (that I learned from my old karate instructor, before I switched to TKD) as well as sword forms of Haedong Gumdo.

Q Do you teach hoshinsul, and if so, where did that come from?
A Yes, and typically, it is taken from application of the forms, with added elements of Jujutsu, Judo, Hapkido, Aikido, and Western High School/College Wrestling

Q Have you grafted on elements of other arts? If so, what arts and elements?
A See Above with the self defense, as well as the Haedong Gumdo, and some elements of Japanese Karate (particularly, some of the chambers before blocks and strikes).

 

[irgordon]

Personally, I would eliminate the poom rank at the Kukkiwon and award dan rank to everyone, regardless of age. There is no effective distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank, especially since a poom rank can be converted to a dan rank once the student reaches a certain age. Because of that, any distinction between a poom rank and a dan rank is meaningless.

How long does it take an average student who doesn't miss a test to get to 1st dan? Limiting "black belt" ranks to an arbitrary age also limits potential students from joining. This may not be a concern when you have a non-commercial dojang, but may be a concern for a commercial one. The trend is for younger and younger age students to start training, so if you limit your age of student or age of 1st dan, then you may lose a whole group of students from joining. And, if you have competitors who do accept younger students and promote students to black belt irregardless of age, then you may be cutting off the majority of your potential students. Perhaps this is one reason why you were sold the school in the first place, because self imposed limitations on potential students made the dojang unprofitable.

Something to consider. I can see where these things may cause you some internal conflicts, where philosophical belief is in direct contrast to practical reality. You want to institute all these changes and do things your way, but then when you are in the driver's seat, you slowly understand or at least can appreciate why your instructor did certain things. These are the lessons to be learned by new school owners, as outlined in the poomsae pyongwon, usually learned at 4th Dan. When you work out all these things for yourself, that's when you will be ready for 5th Dan promotion. At least to me.

The problem is Kids are not adults, even the law doesn't hold them to the same standard. Of course if you are under 15, you are still a child and should be treated as such. SO I do not have a problem with the current Poom/Dan system. While yes, if those student continue they can get 2nd Poom and 3rd Poom, most do usually get 2nd Dan after their 1st Poom. We have only had 2 students who were 1st Poom and 1 who was 2nd Poom but, we are a more traditional school when it comes to training. We don't believe in promoting students every other year or 2 years. Are they reflecting and understanding their rank? What curriculum are they learning that can be learned in 12 months??

The problem is you have 6, 9, 12 year olds running around as 3rd Dan, 4th Dan and its ridiculous, it waters down the meaning of achieving Black Belt. It shouldn't just be handed out like candy or a sticker for continuing with the martial arts.

Black belt is a serious rank and should be treated as such. Anyone who trained hard for it know what I mean. I can't respect a 10 year old kid who is 2nd Dan, when did he start training? In the womb?? I took over 7 years to get my 1st Dan, I know what it means to obtain it and what it means to be it. So, no...kids, children are not the same and should not be treated as such.

I strenuously object to any school, dojang, dojo, association that promotes kids (under 16) to full Dan, especially if it was earned in under 2-3 years. Think about it, most systems have 9 Gups for under belts, with a minimum of 6 months at each rank, which I think is very generous for training and learning new curriculum...it would be 3.5 years til you could be ELIGIBLE to test for 1st Dan. So, yeah I can't get behind little kids being promoted to full Dan black belt if they don't put the time in. Just like in school their is Kindergarten, then Elementary, then Junior HS, then HS...finally they get to go to college, then their is Graduate School and so forth....there are no shortcuts to success...only hard work and dedication...