Tae Kwon Do forms

[Eric Daniel]

Where does Tae Kwon Do get it's forms? I heard that the forms come from shotokan Karate but modified. Is this true? I think that what I heard was that the new "modern" forms aren't from Shotokan karate but the old forms (Hyungs) were influenced by Shotokan Karate. What do you think?
sincerely, Eric Daniel

 

[arnisador]

Yes, they're from Shotokan originally. However, the various orgs. have made many changes to them since then, and in many cases the new ones have little resemblance to the original ones. It depends on what TKD group we're talking about.

 

[Flying Crane]

We actually have had a bit of a discussion on this going just recently. check out the thread here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27551

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

It all goes back to the occupation, but yup our poomse are influenced from Japanese Karate kata. We just modified it to fit our needs%-}

 

[Rick Fine]

Actually, the forms predate Shotokan. If you look to the roots of Shotokan, you'll find the actual nexus for the forms practiced in Korea post-WWII. Some of the kwan lineages connect to these roots through Shotokan; other kwans have other connections, such as via Shudokan under Toyama Kanken (who studied under the same principal teachers as Funakoshi). But if you go back one generation before Funakoshi, Toyama, et al, you'll reach the same origins in Okinawa.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Where does Tae Kwon Do get it's forms? I heard that the forms come from shotokan Karate but modified. Is this true? I think that what I heard was that the new "modern" forms aren't from Shotokan karate but the old forms (Hyungs) were influenced by Shotokan Karate. What do you think?
sincerely, Eric Daniel

It depends upon the organization. The ITF Chon-Ji forms were developed by Gen. Choi (et. al), and introduced in 1965. The WTF created its own forms as did the ATA (which, BTW, they copyrighted). A small number of older independents still do the original forms, modified from Shotokan, that Tang Soo Do uses.

 

[arnisador]

Actually, the forms predate Shotokan. If you look to the roots of Shotokan, you'll find the actual nexus for the forms practiced in Korea post-WWII. Some of the kwan lineages connect to these roots through Shotokan; other kwans have other connections, such as via Shudokan under Toyama Kanken (who studied under the same principal teachers as Funakoshi). But if you go back one generation before Funakoshi, Toyama, et al, you'll reach the same origins in Okinawa.

And if you go back a step further, many of those forms came from Southern China! As with so many other aspects of Japanese and Korean culture, China is the font.

 

[Brother John]

Actually, the forms predate Shotokan. If you look to the roots of Shotokan, you'll find the actual nexus for the forms practiced in Korea post-WWII. Some of the kwan lineages connect to these roots through Shotokan; other kwans have other connections, such as via Shudokan under Toyama Kanken (who studied under the same principal teachers as Funakoshi). But if you go back one generation before Funakoshi, Toyama, et al, you'll reach the same origins in Okinawa.

.....what are your sources for these claims? Like Shudokan predating Shotokan???


Thanks


Your Brother
John

 

[Rick Fine]

.....what are your sources for these claims? Like Shudokan predating Shotokan???

I'm not suggesting that Shudokan predates Shotokan. I'm saying that the forms in question originated before Shotokan, and that they were handed down through lineages other than Shotokan (for example, Shudokan).

Moreover, some of the original kwan founders learned these forms from Shudokan, directly from Toyama Kanken. In our own line (Chang Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, Hung Moo Kwan), GM Yoon Byung-In trained with Toyama at Nihon University. So did Dr. Yoon Kwae-Byung of Ji Do Kwan. According to Toyama himself, both of them attained shihan level:

http://www.wkf.org/shudokan.list.html

FWIW, Toyama and Funakoshi had the same principal instructors (particularly Itosu and Higashionna) back in Okinawa before coming to Japan to teach, so they practiced most of the same forms.

Sadly, when the kwans were assimilated into taekwondo most of them abandoned these older forms, though a few descendants like us maintain them. To homogenize their curricula and distinguish themselves from karate (and from each another), each of the emerging taekwondo organizations (KTA, WTF, ITF) designed their own forms. But none of these new forms were created out of whole cloth. Of course, in formulating something new, you rely on the body of knowledge you already have. That's why many of the movements and sequences within these newer forms look similar — and in some instances identical — to pieces of the older karate forms.

 

[rmclain]

Sadly, when the kwans were assimilated into taekwondo most of them abandoned these older forms, though a few descendants like us maintain them. To homogenize their curricula and distinguish themselves from karate (and from each another), each of the emerging taekwondo organizations (KTA, WTF, ITF) designed their own forms. But none of these new forms were created out of whole cloth. Of course, in formulating something new, you rely on the body of knowledge you already have. That's why many of the movements and sequences within these newer forms look similar — and in some instances identical — to pieces of the older karate forms.[/quote]


Hello Master Fine,

Interesting you should mention this. I have in front of me a first edition 1965 English copy of Choi Hong Hi's book, originally published in Korean in 1959 by Daeha Publications/Hwasong Printing Company in Seoul, Korea. My father bought this book in 1965 on 42nd in New York City.

In this book, Choi has listed the 20 Chang-Hon forms he created in 1950, plus a section on the karate forms he learned in Japan. Karate forms listed are: Pyung Ahn 1-5, Bassai Tae, Enbi (Wanshu), No Hai, Kong Son Kun, Chulki 1-3, Sypsoo (Jit-te), Hangetsu, Cha-un (Jion).

One of my older students who has trained since the 1960's in other places (he's 64 yrs old) received his 1st Dan in ITF TKD a few years ago, then joined the Arlington Chayon-Ryu dojang. It is interesting to work with him because when I teach him the Pyung Ahn forms he makes comments, such as "Oh, this is where General Choi got that movement in form X."

R. McLain

 

[The Kai]

Mr fine
Love the revisionist history, keep it up

 

[Rick Fine]

Mr fine
Love the revisionist history, keep it up

Todd,

What aspect do you consider revisionist, and why?

 

[The Kai]

Post#5, after the word anything

 

[arnisador]

Post#5, after the word anything

I don't see that word in that post. I thought Post #5 was quite accurate in general, though I don't know anything about Shudokan in particular.

 

[Rick Fine]

And if you go back a step further, many of those forms came from Southern China! As with so many other aspects of Japanese and Korean culture, China is the font.

For sure! Here's a pretty good read on the development of the Okinawan forms:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=221
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=222

 

[terryl965]

For sure! Here's a pretty good read on the development of the Okinawan forms:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=221
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=222

Thanks for the link interesting.
Terry

 

[arnisador]

Looks like a good site...thanks! I'll flip through it in more detail later.

 

[Miles]

Sadly, when the kwans were assimilated into taekwondo most of them abandoned these older forms, though a few descendants like us maintain them. To homogenize their curricula and distinguish themselves from karate (and from each another), each of the emerging taekwondo organizations (KTA, WTF, ITF) designed their own forms. But none of these new forms were created out of whole cloth. Of course, in formulating something new, you rely on the body of knowledge you already have. That's why many of the movements and sequences within these newer forms look similar — and in some instances identical — to pieces of the older karate forms.

This is not revisionist, this is simply what happened. Japan occupied Korea so Koreans learned Japanese martial arts. When Karate was introduced to Japan in 1922, there were Koreans in Japan. Chung Do Kwan founder LEE, Won Kuk studied under Funakoshi, Gichin and his son Giko. As pointed out by Mr. Fine and others GM YOON, Byung In (who was already accomplished in Joon An Pa (Chuan Fa) studied with Toyama, Kanken founder of Shudokan Karate-do. Both Funakoshi and Toyama were Okinawan, not Japanese.

I don't consider it "sad" that we don't practice the Okinawan kata, our poomsae is one aspect which distinguishes what Taekwondo from Okinawan and Japanese Karate-do.

Miles

 

[Spookey]

Hey Guys,

Just catching up a bit as I havent been on much lately...

I would agree with Miles completely - I am proud to practice Taekwon-Do

- if I was a practitioner of Karate-do yet no longer practices the base kata then I would be sad -

However, I am proud to practice the Hyungs -Poomse -Tul that make Taekwon-Do uniquely different from Karate-do!

TAEKWON!
SPookey

 

[Rick Fine]

I also agree. Different strokes for different folks.

What's sad is not the addition of the newer taekwondo forms, but the subtraction of the time-tested karate forms brought to Korea by the original kwan-founders. It's kind of like disowning your parents — and your grandparents and the rest of the family tree with them. Wouldn't that be just a tad disrespectful and unappreciative? As we say in Texas, "Don't forget to dance with the one who brung you."

More specifically, what's especially sad is that some schools latch onto an old kwan name only for some vestige of history or credibility, with nothing to back it up. But in fact their instructors preserved absolutely nothing from that kwan's formative curriculum. To them, and through no fault of their own, the kwan exists in name alone and not in substance. Generations before them, their kwan's original forms were thrown out the window in their entirety, to make room for the new taekwondo forms.That's okay with me, but you can't have it both ways.

If your present forms sufficiently preserve your art, then so be it. There are many paths to the mountain top. Ultimately, every worthwhile endeavor leads to the same destination.