Succesfully fighting two attackers: myth or reality?

[Zujitsuka]

Some may feel that "mass attack randori" in the dojo or kata/forms helps prepare them for these scenarios. However, "mass attack randori" and kata/forms makes a presumption that your attackers will fight honorably - they won't pounce on you at once.

Do you guys remember the old "GI Joe" cartoon with Duke, Snake Eyes, Cobra Commander, Destro and the rest of the gang? Remember how bad guys used to jump on the good guys and beat them silly? Well, that is how fighting multiple attackers really is. Take it from me because I've had my butt kicked by multiple attackers a few times.

I'm not saying that "mass attack randori" or kata/forms is not an important part of training, but please don't develop a false sense of security that the will prepare you for a street fight.

In my humble opinion, the best way to be prepared is to train hard in your martial art, commit to becoming a well-conditioned combat athlete (so you can "take a licking and keep on ticking", and so you will have the endurance to escape), and to always be aware of what is going on around you.

All the best,

Tyrone Turner
(A Zujitsuka from NYC)
http://www.tyroneturner.com

 

[Cruentus]

Do you guys remember the old "GI Joe" cartoon with Duke, Snake Eyes, Cobra Commander, Destro and the rest of the gang?

GI Joe kicks @$$!!! I used to love that cartoon. My favorite was snake eyes (of course!)

 

[Cruentus]

What the hell is a "repy"??!?! I ment reply. My spelling is off today....

 

[Bushido]

It happens...


-Bushido

 

[Bushido]

Personnaly, I think that fighting a single opponent can sometimes be difficult, 2 or 3 could be damn hard. This is not an conclusion, it COULD be. I think there are many factors:

1- the number of opponents :idunno:

2- the size of opponents :jediduel:

3- the mental state of opponents :drink2tha or :rpo: or :anic:

4- the type of altercations :argue: or :boxing:

5- the place that you're in :uhoh:

6- is there weapons involved :uzi:

But in general, i would practice the ancient art of Running-Fu :2xbird:

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons



How do you define Successfully?

Winning? Taking no damage? or just surviving?

a fight you walk away from with no permanant damage is a fight you have won.

also, what I've been told is try to position yourself so they can't get behind you. Put a wall at your back or something (still give yourself room to back up, just give yourself one side they can't get at you from) because it is very difficult to defend against something you can't see coming at you.

I think the degree of success here has to do with the skill of the victim versus the skill of the attackers. If you have a very well trained victim versus a couple of common street thugs, the victim may have a good chance. however, if you have a well trained victim versus a couple of well trained attackers, the victim is probably going down.

 

[arnisador]

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by Nightingale


also, what I've been told is try to position yourself so they can't get behind you. Put a wall at your back or something (still give yourself room to back up, just give yourself one side they can't get at you from) because it is very difficult to defend against something you can't see coming at you.

This is a little off topic but here goes. I had a friend who used to go out with us on occation to the bars, but he would never drink. never dance and he would always take the stool that was at the end of the bar in the corner and nearest the emergency exit. It may have been the safest and smartest place to be, but why come to the bar or club if that's what you are going to do. The only reason I could think is that he was covering the rest of us. Sorry for the rant but, my whole point is that there is a fine line between preparedness and paranoia.

 

[Lawman9]

I have successfully taken down multiple suspects to handcuff them. One of my students took down two armed robbers and one had a gun. He didn't realize the suspect was armed until after he put hands on, so he just followed through as we trained. He had two armed robbers in handcuffs before his backup ever got there.
Point to be made: he didn't see an armed robbery and progress and jumped in. He saw two guys beating up a third guy and thought it was a regular fight...
Just my 2....

 

[arnisador]

Any advice from that experience?

 

[Lawman9]

The only advice i can give is to try to control the tunnel vision. We work on that extensively sense most of my students are also cops. Tunnel vision can get you killed really quick. In a multiple attacker situation the stress level is already incredibly high and it can be easy to slip into tunnel vision. Once you lose your periperal vision and your stress control, you start missing things (i.e. gun, knife, another attacker). Not to mention your senses, such as hearing, start shutting down.
The person that can stay the most relaxed and move freely will always win.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Bod
OK - my credibility is about to go out of the window.
No, I don't think your credibility would suffer... not here anyway... perhaps with the folks that know you and don't share your MA enthusiasm... have had that happen before.

I succesfully fought 9 - 12 opponents!

I too have faced multiple opponents 8 at one time and 2 another time and then three still a time after those previous incidents.

At the time I had been meditating heavily on Musashi's advice on fighting multiple opponents, which was lucky. He assumes that you will be more skillful than your attackers, which is sensible because otherwise you would die back then with swords and everything.

Miayamoto Musashi <sic> was in his day probably THE greatest swordsman of all time anywhere period. He knew it and knew that there was no other way to look at it. He was being realistic. Either you are going to be better than your opponent or you're gonna die.

It certainly would have turned out completely differently if my opponents were all prepared to fight me individually, yet still attacked en masse.

Had my 8 attackers (similiar situation as yours) attacked me en masse then yes I'd be hurt seriously or dead. The TWO attackers DID attack simultaneously but their timing was off enough that I was able to attend to one at a time... all very quickly of course and one had a gun. VERY very scary situation.
The three went after me one at a time and it struck me funny during the fight that the remaining two didn't take the hint after I broke the arm of the first and had him holding his crotch while he writhe on the ground. I was actually giggling while fighting the remaining two. Fortunately they were push-overs which made it easier for me. Had they been burly/bigger/heavier and meaner I think I'd be in bad shape.

All that experience had taught me one very valuable lesson. And the first two I had done both as soon as it was possible. Whenever possible R-U-N. There is NO shame to it at all. If you want to get technical about it or lay shame somewhere let it be on THEM as they allowed you (presumably easy prey) to escape.

:asian:

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

In my own experience, the primary disadvantage a single defender has against a multiple assault is the fact that it usually happens very quickly, allowing little time to formulate strategy or tactics. The primary advantage the single defender often (not always, not always!) has is that many times the group has no coodinated plan of attack and may (may, may!) either get in each other's way or hold back in fear of doing so. In this case, the defender may take advantage of this by taking on as few attackers as possible at one time while using said attackers as a blockade against the others (all the while looking to get out of Dodge). IMHO, of course. :asian:

 

[Lawman9]

Originally posted by MACaver
Had my 8 attackers (similiar situation as yours) attacked me en masse then yes I'd be hurt seriously or dead. The TWO attackers DID attack simultaneously but their timing was off enough that I was able to attend to one at a time... all very quickly of course and one had a gun. VERY very scary situation.
The three went after me one at a time and it struck me funny during the fight that the remaining two didn't take the hint after I broke the arm of the first and had him holding his crotch while he writhe on the ground. I was actually giggling while fighting the remaining two. Fortunately they were push-overs which made it easier for me. Had they been burly/bigger/heavier and meaner I think I'd be in bad shape.

All that experience had taught me one very valuable lesson. And the first two I had done both as soon as it was possible. Whenever possible R-U-N. There is NO shame to it at all. If you want to get technical about it or lay shame somewhere let it be on THEM as they allowed you (presumably easy prey) to escape.



:asian:

No offense here, but maybe a little more environmental awareness would help keep you guys out of these major fights. I have successfully avoided fights for 28 years, except while i'm at work. What type of situation arises where you pi@# off 8 guys?!?! And what type of area were you in?? Just my curiousity.

 

[NoSuchChick]

Well, I'll have to start off by stating the disclaimer that I haven't met multiple attackers on the street.

What I have done, however, is train against multiple attackers (up to 15) and done alright. I have also done tactical defensive training (for police, fed agents, etc.) to train for this scenario, and held my own.

Three things that I find helpful:

Remain calm.

Keep moving. If you stay squared off, they will keep coming: but a moving target is harder to lock onto, and it interferes with an attacker's psychology: granted, only for seconds, but that gives you a few more seconds to prepare.

Next, I would say to keep your form: try not to allow yourself to be bent (inasmuch as you can) as it makes you weaker and easier to take down. Squat if neccessary.

Granted, every situation is different, and even in the dojo, you don't always win: that's ok- better to lose in the dojo and learn, than not to learn and lose on the street.

For the record, I have many friends who have had to fight multiple attackers, and they have all walked away with minor injuries.

It is not impossible.

Jennifer

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Lawman9
No offense here, but maybe a little more environmental awareness would help keep you guys out of these major fights. I have successfully avoided fights for 28 years, except while i'm at work. What type of situation arises where you pi@# off 8 guys?!?! And what type of area were you in?? Just my curiousity.

Well it wasn't a situation where I had intentionally pissed off 8 guys because nobody is really THAT stupid (are they?). But it was about 20 years ago and I was with a (deaf) friend in downtown St. Louis and we were attending a confrence and during a two hour break we decided to go tour the city. It was on a Sunday afternoon and we were together and it was a nice day. Enroute back to the hotel (near the river) we had passed a group of young men. We didn't look their way or even bother to notice. They were a group of teenagers hanging out and we were just passing by.
My friend and I were signing animatedly because of a choice topic and thus that does draw attention where-ever you are. It wasn't until we were about a block away from the hotel that I designed to look back over my shoulder and saw the group of kids (police told me later they ranged from 14 to 16 yrs) in a tight group following us about 50 yards back.
My own instinct raised a red flag because I didn't see one of them smiling and all of them focused on the two of us. I warned my friend (in signs) that there "might" be trouble and that we were to go straight to the hotel without detouring to his car as originally planned.
When we crossed the street and made contact with the hotel parking lot's boundries I thought we were safe but the group continued on straight at us like a pack of wolves. When THEY arrived at the parking lot they broke up and began trying to flank us on either side. My friend and I wove our way (still walking calmly and together) between the cars to shorten the distance to the front door of the hotel and also to break up the pack.
I heard them calling at us (to get us to stop so they could surround us and thus do whatever!) but we ignored them because "hey we can't hear you guys we're deaf".
When the small rocks flew by us and bounced off the parked cars I knew the game was for real and when a glass bottle shattered a windshield of a car next to us is when I gave my friend the signal to RUN.
The chase was on and my friend made it to the hotel but I got cut off by one of the kids and had to change course, another cut off THAT route and thus I was forced to run full speed all the way around the hotel. I stopped at every side entrance hoping against hope that at least ONE of them might've been unlocked.
At that time I saw I was able to at least keep a good 35 to 50 yard distance between me and my attackers. A quick count showed that I had six after me which meant two more were unaccounted for... I guessed rightly that they circled opposite the building hoping to catch me. I mangaged to circle 3/4 of the hotel before being caught between kids.
Placed my back immediately against the wall so I'd at least have a 180 degree view and no worries of any of them behind me.
By the time the Hotel's doorman made it around the side of the building shouting "hey you kids leave that man alone!" I had disabled three of them though one of them tore my watch off my wrist. The doorman scared the kids off (and sirens wailed in the distance) and caught up with me and escorted be to the front of the hotel.

Basically I was a victim of a group of bored kids with a tendency to do bad things. I saw that they were just young inexperienced kids and tried to minimize what damage I could inflict on the ones that got too close. Had they all gone for me en-massed then the outcome would've been radically different. I went ahead and pressed charges against the six that were caught because my watch was gone and therefore it was assault-robbery.
I assumed that the six were either let off because I could not hang around for the week it would've taken for the case to go to trial. The police had my written testimony but obviously that's not enough. This was roughly 20 years ago.
So I don't PUT myself in these situations .. I don't think a lot of people intentionally do. Just my bad luck and those kids boredom that led to the incident. At least I gave them a run for their money, and hopefully taught them to think twice about taking on someone unknown.

 

[Reprobate]

I've been in multiple fights against multiple attackers four times.

The most hazardous situation I was in was after an argument in a discotheque. The two persons I quarrelled with were removed from the discotheque, but I stayed.
Stupid, I should've left right away, preferably through another exit.

When I came out of the discotheque I received a glancing blow against the head that threw me to the ground.
Lying on my side on the bricks I was surrounded by a couple of men who were kicking at me. I think it was four or five of them, but I can't be sure. I cradled my head and received a kick against my hand that ripped the skin. The pain made me furious and I realized I had to fight back or I'd kicked to death.

One was standing in front of me, kicking me in the belly. I managed to hook one hand behind his calf and broke his kneecap with my elbow. When he went down I crawled on top of him, ignoring the others as I grabbed him by the ears and slammed the back of his head against the bricks. A hand grabbed me by the shoulder to pull me off and I grabbed the hand and broke the fingers. As I came to my feet I was alone, standing over the unconscious attacker with the broken knee. The others had fled.

The next morning I woke up sporting a jacket of bruises. I went to the hospital for an x-ray, but none of my ribs was cracked. I walked like an old man for a week, taking shallow breaths.

I was lucky - very lucky. A week or so later a man called Meindert Tjoelker was kicked to death by a couple of men because he said something about them vandalizing bicycles. That could've been me, except that I wasn't kicked in the head and remained conscious and able to fight back. And as I attacked the guy kicking my belly, the others didn't attack me all at once, which would've been the end of me as I was totally focused on the guy with the broken kneecap.

They were cowards, who ran when they saw the tables turning on them, but if they had a little more courage they would've taken me down.

My advice - if you get into an altercation and you're not bound to remain at the location - get out. Don't do what I did and stay around while the opposition gets reinforcements.

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Reprobate
<snip>I've been in multiple fights against multiple attackers four times.

<snip>They were cowards, who ran when they saw the tables turning on them, but if they had a little more courage they would've taken me down.

<snip>My advice - if you get into an altercation and you're not bound to remain at the location - get out. Don't do what I did and stay around while the opposition gets reinforcements.

It seems that most attackers and multiple attackers tend to be of the hyena variety, brazen in a group but cowardly should they see that there's a chance of getting injured or killed. Only the over confident and stupid hangs around.

But the advice (above) is sound and I heartly agree with it. If there's a chance to get away then do so and quickly. If you have to protect someone get them to run while you hold off the attackers then follow quickly or run with your companion. There is NO shame at all from the high ranking black-belt to a white belt in running from a fight.
It's the sensible thing to do. You just cannot guess what the attacker may or may not know and what weapons they may or may not have. Assume the worse.
We learn MA to protect/defend ourselves (among other reasons) but only when there is no alternative. Then and only then bring every ounce of your training to bear and take the attacker(s) down asap...then run. I'm still alive because of that method of thinking.:asian:

 

[lost_tortoise]

ATIENZA KALI! www.atienzakali.com

 

[SpiritFists936]

if there is more then one attacker, your chances are slim and none, its not like the movies they all come at you at the same time, and from different directions, the only way you can come out on top is with lots of luck.