Style

[Shin71]

How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?

First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."

If you got legit creds you probably claim it without advertising it, usually only if asked about it.

Most important of all you dont make up a bunch of stuff or organize all your training into something that works for you (or doesn't) and then call it ninjutsu, post 50 things in the ninjutsu boards and whine when you get called out on it. If you got skills then that will show itself, if they are something you want to pass on then that is something else and takes different skill sets.

Just because someone is in the Infantry/Airborn/Air Assault/Rangers/SF or other is a level 4 Combatives instructor, knows how to use camo, used lots of weapons, can patrol and use tactics doesn't mean they can suddenly say "Hey, that is kind of historical ninja like, I think I will open the Army-Ninjutsu school of Combatives today" (unless I can get rich quick off of it.... anyway)

To say otherwise is foolish. Be proud of your self and if you have a system that works and you can translate those skills into something that others can learn and use in the way you are telling them they are meant then call it what it is; dont use ryu, do, po, jutsu unless you are really teaching a core system with some variation and then note that.....

How does everyone else feel about this? I am asking because I stumbled across something by some Zapata guy and I have never seen that many orange dots in a rep?

 

[Chris Parker]

Er, what? Didn't really follow much of that, to be honest....

 

[Omar B]

LOL Chris. I read that post last night before I went to bed and thought I was just tired. After sleep, coffee, workout and shower it still makes no sense.

I swear, the internet is a written medium for the most part yet still people can't put together coherent, grammatically correct sentences.

 

[Cryozombie]

I swear, the internet is a written medium for the most part yet still people can't put together coherent, grammatically correct sentences.

What you say? Main screen turn on!

 

[Omar B]

What you say? Main screen turn on!

Wait? What am you sazy?

 

[Shin71]

How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?

First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."

If you got legit creds you probably claim it without advertising it, usually only if asked about it.

Most important of all you dont make up a bunch of stuff or organize all your training into something that works for you (or doesn't) and then call it ninjutsu, post 50 things in the ninjutsu boards and whine when you get called out on it. If you got skills then that will show itself, if they are something you want to pass on then that is something else and takes different skill sets.

Just because someone is in the Infantry/Airborn/Air Assault/Rangers/SF or other is a level 4 Combatives instructor, knows how to use camo, used lots of weapons, can patrol and use tactics doesn't mean they can suddenly say "Hey, that is kind of historical ninja like, I think I will open the Army-Ninjutsu school of Combatives today" (unless I can get rich quick off of it.... anyway)

To say otherwise is foolish. Be proud of your self and if you have a system that works and you can translate those skills into something that others can learn and use in the way you are telling them they are meant then call it what it is; dont use ryu, do, po, jutsu unless you are really teaching a core system with some variation and then note that.....

How does everyone else feel about this? I am asking because I stumbled across something by some Zapata guy and I have never seen that many orange dots in a rep?

Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.

I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?" And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all.

I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.

 

[Omar B]

Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.

I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?" And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all.

I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.

Don't post threads from a Blackberry. For all our sakes and the sake of making a clear point use a computer, reread, edit then post.

People should be called out for pulling a bait and switch, no matter what. If I opened a ballet school and my only knowledge of the subject was what I've gleaned from my sister over the years then I would be a fraud with no credentials claiming to teach ballet. Same with any martial art, if you can not show lineage to one of the true systems then it's a bait and switch.

It's a compeltely different situation from someone who learns a whole system then breaks away. Like the Alvin Aily school of dance where the peopel here spent many years learning the classical forms and even perform traditional pieces but also perform modern dance. It's a ligitamate school, they have all the credentials, they can perform all the stuff as good and even better than other ballet schools, but it's not because their focus is on American forms.

There is a difference between knowing then changing something that have worked with for years to suit your own value judgments as opposed to making something up off the top of your head.

 

[Steve]

My impression is that claiming ninjutsu is actually detrimental to your reputation, and what quality schools that do exist are continuously fighting the poor impression that subpar schools have given the general martial arts community. I'm not involved in ninjutsu directly, but through these boards and others, that's been the gist of what I've seen.

If I were inventing my style and looking for instant "cred", I'd claim MMA or some kind of RBSD over any false association with ninjutsu.

 

[Indagator]

Wait? What am you sazy?

Lol that reminds me of the time I ended up watching a pirated version of Ip Man 2, where the subtitles gave the direct literal English translation of the Chinese speech.
Very hard, in places, to decipher what was being said lol.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this is still more than a little convaluted to my mind, but I'll try to go through as much of it as I can to see if we can get to something close to what you are trying to get at. Let's see how we go, then, shall we?

How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?

Below is a clarifying PM you sent me, which I feel could help others reading this to understand what you are trying to get at:

I have put in a reply to a thread I started in ninjutsu called "Style." Hope it clarifies what I was trying to say. The use of the word Style was meant more to mean class and not form of H2H.

Okay, so the question is: how do you tell if someone has "class" in martial arts? Well, really, that's kinda subjective, to be honest. Do you mean how can you tell if someone has any form of integrity? That should hopefully be revealed in your dealings with them, but there really is no litmus test for sucht things. For example, Stephen Hayes is often refered to as a person of great integrity by his students, but a different image is portrayed by the Bujinkan by and large, so who do you listen to? Well, that depends on your affiliation and experiences.

First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."

Now that depends. My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems (Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu and the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki rounding out the "classical" material), leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu). So it could be argued that the resultant curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is, as we don't deal with the "samurai" systems, whereas they do, making their art of Budo Taijutsu both Ninjutsu and Samurai Bugei. The same goes for the Genbukan focusing on the Ninjutsu (or Ninpo) related sysyems, and teaching the "samurai" ones in the KJJR (Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei).

Issues come up with organisations such as Christa Jacobsons' Budo Ryu system, as she has legitmate ranking in the Bujinkan and Toshindo organisations, but then went off and came back with "Tomo Ryu", which seems to make up the majority of what is taught in the Budo Ryu, and has no historical basis whatsoever. Or Brian McCarthy's Bujinkan Brian Dojo, as Mr McCarthy split from the Bujinkan in the 90's, yet continues to use the Bujinkan name, and adds in a lot of very non-Ninjutsu/X-Kan material, such as Tae-Kwon Do-style kicking, kama, and more. Not surprisingly, Bujinkan members are not particularly fond of Brian continuing to use their name for his art (can't say I blame them at all for that, to be honest).

If you got legit creds you probably claim it without advertising it, usually only if asked about it.

Well, maybe. Depends how you advertise, really.

Most important of all you dont make up a bunch of stuff or organize all your training into something that works for you (or doesn't) and then call it ninjutsu, post 50 things in the ninjutsu boards and whine when you get called out on it. If you got skills then that will show itself, if they are something you want to pass on then that is something else and takes different skill sets.

Okay, this comes up every now and then, so I'll deal with it here. Whether or not something is Ninjutsu is nothing to do with any form of applicable skills, effectiveness, or anything of the kind. Whether or not something is Ninjutsu is purely determined by it's historical link to the peoples and systems associated with Japans Ninja. Frankly, "skills" in this form don't really come into it. And as the determining factor is this link to the historical arts, there is no way possible to create anything new that truly deserves, or can have applied to it, the name of Ninjutsu.

Just because someone is in the Infantry/Airborn/Air Assault/Rangers/SF or other is a level 4 Combatives instructor, knows how to use camo, used lots of weapons, can patrol and use tactics doesn't mean they can suddenly say "Hey, that is kind of historical ninja like, I think I will open the Army-Ninjutsu school of Combatives today" (unless I can get rich quick off of it.... anyway)

This is something else that comes up pretty regularly. To be absolutely categorical about it here, the historical Ninja, the reasons their skills and arts developed, and the uses thereof, are very removed from any national armed forces, no matter the speciality. There are superficial similarities, but the reasons (which really give the "why", and by extension the "how" of the system) are very very different. They shouldn't be confused. Army Combatives has as much to do with Ninjutsu as it does with Taiji.

To say otherwise is foolish. Be proud of your self and if you have a system that works and you can translate those skills into something that others can learn and use in the way you are telling them they are meant then call it what it is; dont use ryu, do, po, jutsu unless you are really teaching a core system with some variation and then note that.....

(Small thing here.... "po" is actually "ho" unless put behind certain syllables. It's the same character in each of the following terms: ninPO, heiHO, goHO, ropPO etc, simply meaning "method").

One thing that always gets to me is that people seem to want to use Asian terms (jutsu, Nin, etc) because it's "exotic", without realising that such terms are, to a Japanese mind, as exotic as terms like boxing, or wrestling are to Westerners. The only reason to use a Japanese word is that there is a definate link to Japanese arts or to Japan; if it isn't there, there's no point.

How does everyone else feel about this? I am asking because I stumbled across something by some Zapata guy and I have never seen that many orange dots in a rep?

Yeah, you may notice that Emilio is no longer with us. And you may also realise that few here had much in the way of "good" thoughts for Emilio and his system. The little red dots would be a clue to that.

Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.

Okay, as Omar said, try to avoid doing such things if you want to be understood. As for MMA, well, it's certainly got it's place, but is very removed from the reasons that arts such as Ninjutsu exist. Neither is better, by the way, just existing for different reasons, which will suit one person and their needs more or less than the other.

I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?" And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all.

No, not really "better", and certainly not "legitimate", just more exotic, and therefore more appealing from a marketing point of view. It is also definately possible that there are certain members of the Neo Ninjutsu organisations (even the founders/heads) who believe the stories they tell, and believe they are "legitimate".

I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.

Still not sure what you're really trying to get at. Frankly, I don't see any comparrison at all. One group of people have legitimate training, the other doesn't. So you know, this type of thing happened in the 70's with Chinese systems as well, as there was a "Kung Fu boom" before the "Ninja boom" of the 80's, before that was Karate, and before that Judo. Afterwards it was BJJ, now it's MMA.

 

[BADASSBUDO]

Now that depends. My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems (Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu and the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki rounding out the "classical" material), leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu). So it could be argued that the resultant curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is, as we don't deal with the "samurai" systems, whereas they do, making their art of Budo Taijutsu both Ninjutsu and Samurai Bugei. The same goes for the Genbukan focusing on the Ninjutsu (or Ninpo) related sysyems, and teaching the "samurai" ones in the KJJR (Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei).

Interesting,
Could you list the "ninjutsu" techniques that you teach/study, that make your school more ninjutsu based that taijutsu/bujutsu based?

 

[Omar B]

You do realize that would be a list of hundreds of separate techniques? Maybe you meant to ask him to explain the various disciplines rather than enumerate each individual unit?

 

[BADASSBUDO]

You do realize that would be a list of hundreds of separate techniques? Maybe you meant to ask him to explain the various disciplines rather than enumerate each individual unit?

Sure I can appreciate that. It's not really what I was asking.

Chris is saying that his schools teach more ninjutsu elements than the bujinkan. I am truly interested in this because I have many tiomes thought that I do not see ANY ninjutsu truly taught in any of the Xkans or splinter groups apart from a spattering here and there...

Since Wayne Roy's original ninjutsu training comes from Hatsumi, and Hatsumi classes his ninjutsu to be made up of about 18 skillsets, perhaps Chris could break down his training time with % beside each skillset (in particular those highlighted bold which I would consider more Ninjutsu based than others.

Taijutsu (striking & grappling)
Kenjutsu (sword )
Bōjutsu (hanbo and staff)
Sōjutsu (spear techniques)
Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)
Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)
Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)
Shurikenjutsu (shurikan and shinken)
Bajutsu (horsemanship)
Sui-ren (water training)
Bōryaku (tactics)
Naginatajutsu (naginata)
Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama)
Chōhō (espionage)
Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)
Tenmon (meteorology)
Chi-mon (geography)
Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual pursuit)

I would then be interested to learn how much time Wayne Roy spent in the 2 years total training he had in Japan that he spent learning those skillsets in Japan.

Thanks in advance, Chris.
It would be great getting to have that kind of understand into your system.
One of the guys at our dojo was saying he may even pop into your dojo on the way to training to say hello.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Interesting,
Could you list the "ninjutsu" techniques that you teach/study, that make your school more ninjutsu based that taijutsu/bujutsu based?

Rather than list the individual techniques, an explanation is perhaps in order.
The Bujinkan (for example) consists of the nine schools. Some of which are ninjutsu, and some of which are not. Forget about techniques for the moment, since techniques are an expression of the concepts that underpin the art. Even though most systems have e.g. wristlocks, they are done for different reasons of with different intention.

Anyway, what Chris is saying is that of the nine schools, they focus only on the ninjutsu (and ninjutsu related) ones, and not on the 'samurai' ones. As a result, they focus more on the ninjutsu aspect than the Bujinkan, which has renamed their system from Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

 

[BADASSBUDO]

Anyway, what Chris is saying is that of the nine schools, they focus only on the ninjutsu (and ninjutsu related) ones, and not on the 'samurai' ones. As a result, they focus more on the ninjutsu aspect than the Bujinkan, which has renamed their system from Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Well, not really. if school a teaches ichimonji no kamae from Togakure ryu and school b teaches it from Gyakko Ryu that IMO does not make it more ninjutsu based than the other due to a hand position.

To me, it is the elements of ninjutsu such as stealth, evasion, tactics, esacape, etc that which really is what seperated "ninja" from a samurai.

Even Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū, a Koryu system with a recognized and verified ninjutsu sylabus do not class the ninjutsu element as any more than intelligence gathering and analysis tactics.

So if you are claiming to be more ninjutsu based than the school you learnt it from in the first place, just saying you "shift focus" is not enough. I'd like to see what exactly at its core you have shifted focus to.

Looking at Chris's website:

Warm-up Basics
To prepare the body for training, practitioners exercise a series of basic techniques using the weapon of the month.
Stretching
Practitioners are then guided through a full-body stretching routine.
Breakfalling & Rolling
The warm-up period is finished by exercising basic breakfalling and rolling techniques.
The rolling is sometimes performed with a training weapon.
Unarmed Defence


Ninjutsu’s unarmed defence includes responses to :

• grabbing attacks
• weapon attacks

• striking attacks
• and ground attacks

Weapons
Ninjutsu training involves a broad range of weaponry. Each weapon is studied for one month at a time.


The two basic weapons are :

• boken ( wooden sword )
• hanbo ( half-staff )

For more information on the weapons studied, please see our section on weapons.
Study Period
During the study period, the practitioners can practice their grading requirements, or strengthen their strikes and kicks on focus mitts.
Sensory Training
Sensory exercises stimulate the development of a person’s ability to react to an unseen attack.

looks like a bujinkan class to me.
Hence my interest in more detail.

Not trying to start trouble.
Just wanted some detailed clarification if it's not too much trouble.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, this is fun.

BADASSBUDO, from your earlier posting you are a former member of our schools, so you have some idea of what we train in (or did 10 years ago). To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above. And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them (both in traditional forms and modern, so you know). But just for fun, a student asked me recently this exact question on another forum via PM, here is my answer to that student:

So anyway, I was looking at the 18 skills of ninjutsu...

Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual refinement)

Seishin Teki Kyoyo is more an end result, rather than something specificly worked on. Part of the idea is that as you train the art you gain greater control over yourself (your emotions etc), as well as becoming more compassionate towards your fellow human beings as you become more and more aware of your own mortality (by being exposed to techniques that symbolically "kill" you, such as weaponry kata). We then also have various devices, such as the meditations that start each class (guided in specific ways for specific results, if you hadn't realised), as well as methods of personal development that you will be exposed to as you progress (certain other meditative methods, Therapy Trees, Timeline Therapy, and more).

Taijutsu (unarmed combat)

This is really the cornerstone of all Ninjutsu schools these days, rather than the weaponry that would have been more likely in ages past. As I'm sure your aware, that is a big part of every class, for us and all others.

Kenjutsu (sword techniques)

Again, very commonly covered. Our approach (due to my personal interest and study of the sword, as well as other reasons) lends us to be more "technical" than the Bujinkan, for instance. We cover this weapon 4 times a year (at least), and it is the "attacking" weapon for many other months.

So you know, though, this is not Kenjutsu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOVVn6prrI It is frankly embarrassing. So we won't be doing things like this.

Bōjutsu (stick and staff techniques)

Bojutsu is the fundamental weapon of the Kukishin traditions, and is taught in various forms, including Hanbo (covered every 3 months, or four times a year), Jo (which we are going through now), and Bo (there was a workshop a few months ago, and we will be covering it again early next year in Preston, however the room in the City is a little prohibitive, which is really the only reason we don't cover it as much these days.

Sōjutsu (spear techniques)

It's actually rare to find someone who knows what they are doing in Sojutsu, and rarer to have the essential equipment to do it properly. Fortunately, I have spent a number of years researching this weapon, have the complete scroll for Kukishinden Ryu Sojutsu, and a range of training spears. It's coming up at Preston when we do Kukishinden Ryu, which will be early 2012. There may be a workshop or two leading up to that, but more likely that will be for the next topic.

We have in the past done workshops on Kama Yari, the sickle spear from Kumogakure Ryu, and that may make another appearance.

Naginatajutsu (naginata techniques)

This was the original primary weapon for Kukishin Ryu, but the current form only has a small section. It also includes Bisento (like a Naginata on steroids...), and will most likely make an appearance as a workshop at some point in the next year to year and a half or so.

Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama techniques)

This and Kyoketsu Shoge are due to be taught (again at Preston, as we have the room there) when we go through Togakure Ryu in the second half of next year. I am currently looking at getting training equipment for us to go through this topic (it's a lot of fun, by the way). We have done these in the past as well.

Shurikenjutsu (throwing weapons techniques)

A big part of Togakure Ryu, and will be covered in more detail then. The last time we went through them was about a year ago.

Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)

The use of incendiary devices is not an overtly practical thing these days, as setting the room we are renting on fire isn't really encouraged.... that said, most of it is orally taught, and includes such things as how to best employ fire against old-style Japanese castles, how to light fires in the rain, and so forth, and isn't really taught anywhere (Hatsumi was asked about it once, and said "Why do you need to know that? Can't you get a lighter or some matches?"). If you really want, I can take you through some of the details as I have come across them.

Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)

Again, this is taught through stories, and I've certainly gone through a number of those over the years. Add to that that amongst my background is training as an actor, and if you want more detail, I can certainly take you through it. For your information, though, there were traditionally seven groupings for disguise, based on the Japanese social structure at the time.

Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)

Rarely taught in the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan seems to deal with it the most these days. We will be covering it as part of the traditional scroll teachings of Togakure Ryu, so you know.

Bajutsu (horsemanship)

Horseriding is another topic that we have gone out and done as a workshop before, realistically the modern version of it would be simply leraning to drive a car.... with that said, there are things we teach such Protective Driving skills, which come from Bodyguarding principles, and focus on not being a vicitm of road rage or carjacking.

Sui-ren (water training)

We have, in the past, gone through these skills, and they may be touched on again as part of the Togakure Ryu skills we go through. Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu also teaches a range of principles for fighting in water as well (whereas the Togakure Ryu ones are more about silent swimming, silent entry and exit into water, and so on).

Bōryaku (tactics)

Tactics make up the basis of each and every technique, as they are realistically just symbolic representations of tactics themselves. You will probably hear me use these terms (strategies and tactics) fairly often....

Chōhō (espionage)

This ties into the Inton and Hensojutsu sections, and again is taught through oral stories and teachings. Not really a practical aspect, so almost never taught, but I enjoy the old stories, which is where it really comes from.

Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)

Again, a part of Togakure Ryu's teachings, and will be dealt with then.

Tenmon (meteorology)

Well, I've actually put some of those teachings on another forum before.... not really taught, as there are modern scientific weather bureaus, daily and nightly weather reports, and so on, but if you want to know, I can take you through some aspects.

Chi-mon (geography)

Same as Tenmon, really. The equivalent would be knowing how to read a Melways, or how to find your way if you didn't have one. For this reason, I don't have a GPS, I don't like relying on technology, and prefer to keep my sense of direction sharp. But that's my approach.


Now, as to why we class it as Ninjutsu, well, to me at least, Ninjutsu is a historically linked system to the appropriate groups in Japan, and the systems we teach were chosen as they demonstrate that link (Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu both passed through Momochi Sandayu, without getting to the Hattori clans, that's about as "ninja history" as you can get, Togakure Ryu, well, that's always been acknowledged as a Ninjutsu system, and the origins of the Kukishinden Ryu involve the actions of a Kishu Ninja [either a member of the Kishu Ryu, or a Ninja from Kishu Han] according to Hatsumi Sensei, as well as Ishitani Sensei being said to have an ancestor in the Kami Hattori clan of Hanzo Hattori. To be frank, that is the most tenuous of the links, but it's still there, and provides most of the weaponry training). We also include the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (Takamatsu version), which is said to be Takamatsu's take on what he felt was most important in Ninpo. We don't include the Shinden Fudo Ryu or the Takagi Yoshin Ryu, as these we class as "samurai" systems, and therefore not in keeping with our approach.

Obviously all of these systems are included in the Bujinkan's make-up, my point was not that we had "more", just that we focused only on these aspects.

Hope that helped. Oh, and if yourself, or your dojo-mate wanted to drop in to say hi, obviously they would be most welcome. We're focusing on Gyokko Ryu at the moment, so you know. Just make sure to introduce yourselves, be good to meet some of you (and see if I remember you.... or vice versa!).

 

[Indagator]

To be fair, my training is encompassed within the Bujinkan, and we focus heavily on stealth - including training in public places (at night of course) without being observed or detected.
So some Bujinkan practitioners do incorporate the shinobi-iri that you refer to.
Also, as I was taught, stealth involves detection of other's intent towards you, interpreting their own stealth and defending against it.

 

[Yaiba]

When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
a) some stretching,

b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).

c) single man kata which we were all given a print-out (called scrolls) of the kata we should know by a certain rank...like by 9th kyu just taking a 45 degree and blocking etc

d)working the kata with a partner but wearing a mouth guard, mitts and groin guard, even though we were barely touching eachother

e)then there would be a sit-down time with a whiteboard were we discussed "concepts" There was a time when Wayne Roy came down for a seminar and he discussed the associations of being "lucky in love" or "lucky in business" with "lucky in combat"

f)then Richard cootes would either show some hojo but using an obi, or we would massage eachother, or we would work sakki by one person standing there while the other guy stood behind us and did a very slow punch to the back. The person with the back to the other would have to try and "feel the intent" and turn around.

In the year that I was there, I don't recall working anything else.

To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above.

Earlier you said:

My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems.../...leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones .../...So it could be argued that the resultant curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is.

To me that doesn't make sense.

Your school teaches, as you claim, the Tenchinjin and focus on Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu (its a shame you dropped SDFR... works so well with Koto, but anyway)

But firstly, the Tenchinjin is the core for the bujinkan, and most schools use this as the standard for what a student should know by shodan. If you are also using the tenchinjin, then there is really very little difference between the two.

And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them

Who did Wayne Roy learn his Togakure Ryu techniques from? I remember reading somewhere that he spent most of his training with Nagato-sensei

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Yaiba,

As I've said many times, the instructor is far more important than things like the system (and I include my instructors and myself in that.... some will gel with us, others won't), so please realise that if there are persons such as yourself, BADASSBUDO, and others who didn't find something that was for them with us, that's really fine with me. I'm happy that you've found somewhere that works for you. That said, I wouldn't mind clarifying a few things (and answering your questions to the point that I am able).

When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
a) some stretching,

b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).

For the record, the stretching is just a part of the warm-up, as was the ukemi. The weapon was added more for interest, and to stop it getting boring, really!

c) single man kata which we were all given a print-out (called scrolls) of the kata we should know by a certain rank...like by 9th kyu just taking a 45 degree and blocking etc

Hmm, I don't recall refering to the handouts as "scrolls" themselves... but the term was used on occasion to give some form of symbolic association (along the lines of "you can think of these as your personal training scrolls...."). And the grading structure and requirements are always changing... I've lost count of the variations I've seen over the years! That just seems to be what we were using when you were with us, which seems to be about, what, 10 years ago or so? Late 90's?

d)working the kata with a partner but wearing a mouth guard, mitts and groin guard, even though we were barely touching eachother

Kata practice is the core of these arts, so I'm not really sure what your comment here is.... You would prefer hard impact with no protective equipment? We did do a fair bit of more impactful work (particularly at higher levels), so if you were training with little to no contact, I'm not really sure how that happened. Certainly not what I expect in class these days, so you know. Safety, yes. "Hard" according to grade and experience. But no contact isn't something I encourage.

e)then there would be a sit-down time with a whiteboard were we discussed "concepts" There was a time when Wayne Roy came down for a seminar and he discussed the associations of being "lucky in love" or "lucky in business" with "lucky in combat"

I remember maybe twice when a whiteboard was used, and that was just because it was available (once was to give some insight into the character for "nin", I seem to recall....). As for Mr Roy's comments, that really needs to be put in context, I feel. It was at the end of a three hour class he had presented (from memory, the topic was swordsmanship), and if you want a "ninjutsu connection", look to the sanmitsu. These days people may be more familiar with "The Secret", but the same idea has been around for ages. I also think it had a reference to the upcoming Melbourne Cup...

f)then Richard cootes would either show some hojo but using an obi, or we would massage eachother, or we would work sakki by one person standing there while the other guy stood behind us and did a very slow punch to the back. The person with the back to the other would have to try and "feel the intent" and turn around.

Mr Coote's background was as a TCM practitioner, so that certainly came out in the topics he chose to present (including Shiatsu and others). But again, to put this in context, these topics would be explored at the end of a two hour class which had included Traditional, Modern, and Weaponry combative training, we didn't just massage each other....

As for the sakki training, that was trained as our first line of defence. I have been told that Bujinkan members believe such a skill (as tested in the Godan test) cannot be taught, or trained, however it is something that we did. You know, I always found it odd that the idea was that you can't train it, as there are two kata in Gyokko Ryu that do just that, and another four in Togakure Ryu....

In the year that I was there, I don't recall working anything else.

As I said, different schools will work for different people. I, for instance, have rather different memories of those days, but then again, my training experience was not yours. Once again, I am happy that you have found a school that speaks more to your wants.

To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above.

Earlier you said:

My organisation, for instance, broke away from the Bujinkan about 10 years ago, and we use the Ninjutsu name. The main reason is that we focus pretty much entirely on the Ninjutsu-related systems.../...leaving off the more pure "samurai" ones.../...So it could be argued that the resultant curriculum is more "Ninjutsu" than the Bujinkan is.

To me that doesn't make sense.

Well, maybe it wasn't the clearest choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to imply that we had more Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that our entire syllabus is based on such systems, whereas the Bujinkan has them, plus more, leaving us as more "pure" Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan both Ninjutsu and samurai (as I said, Ninjutsu Plus!).

Essentially, the argument is simple. If there is a restaurant that only serves French food, it is a French restaurant. If they serve French food, Italian food, and Spanish food, you may call them a European restaurant, or a Mediterranean restaurant, but to simply refer to them as a French restaurant would be to dismiss the rest that the establishment has to offer. Does that make more sense?

Your school teaches, as you claim, the Tenchinjin and focus on Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu (its a shame you dropped SDFR... works so well with Koto, but anyway)

Really? I'd say that Gyokko is the natural compliment to Koto, Shinden Fudo is it's own animal to me, at least the Dakentaijutsu. The Jutaijutsu, to me, is very Kukishinden in feel....

But firstly, the Tenchinjin is the core for the bujinkan, and most schools use this as the standard for what a student should know by shodan. If you are also using the tenchinjin, then there is really very little difference between the two.

It is used by a number of Bujinkan schools (and for the record, I personally believe that the Ten Chi Jin is the best training manual I have seen for the Bujinkan, it's simply brilliant in the way it's structured, and if followed properly, is designed to get fantastic results. Much of my personal training is centered around it), but it is in no way "core" for the Bujinkan. I think it should be, but I'm not a member of the Bujinkan. What is core for any Bujinkan school is up to the instructor of that Bujinkan school.

Oh, and for the record, we've been using the Ten Chi Jin since basically the beginning, as Nagato Sensei gave Mr Roy a copy before he left Japan (before the Charles Daniel one came out, by the way). Really, I don't find it particularly surprising that we use Bujinkan documents, as we were the original Bujinkan schools in Australia and New Zealand. And as it was put together as Takamatsu's interpretation of what was most important in Ninpo, so using it doesn't really take us away from being Ninjutsu (to my mind).

Let's see if I can explain this, though. We are different from the Bujinkan because the Bujinkan teaches Budo Taijutsu, the art of Hatsumi Sensei, created by him based on his training and experience, on the systems that he inherited, and his continued training and ever-deepening understanding of the nature of his Budo. We don't teach Budo Taijutsu. It is strictly the providence of the Bujinkan (really, strictly the providence of Hatsumi Sensei). We teach the arts as written in the Densho (as we understand them to be), as well as our interpretation of the strategies and tactics presented there as needed within the modern Australian environment. We don't teach Budo Taijutsu, and as such are fairly predicably different in our approach to the Bujinkan. Neither, to my mind, are better or worse than each other, both have the same potential, but both will appeal to different people for different reasons.

And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them

Who did Wayne Roy learn his Togakure Ryu techniques from? I remember reading somewhere that he spent most of his training with Nagato-sensei

Mr Roy spent his first year with Nagato Sensei, but on subsequent trips was training in Noda with Hatsumi Sensei. There are stories of him walking with other students as Hatsumi was walking his dogs (with Mr Roy carrying one of the elder dogs), and Hatsumi suddenly started explaining and demonstrating various walking methods of Ninjutsu, for instance. And as for who taught him Togakure Ryu waza, I'm not sure if it was Nagato, or Hatsumi, or someone else (haven't asked that, honestly), but I do remember when we focused on Togakure Ryu a number of years ago Mr Roy talking about when he was first exposed to the movements of Kata Ude Tonso and Sayu Tonso in Japan that he thought the movement was rather unusual (with the three steps/pulls to begin them), so I'd suggest that he was taught on one of his Japan trips. Add to that Hatsumi Sensei demonstrating Togakure Ryu waza and methods (such as Intonjutsu) at the Tai Kai in the early 90's in Adelaide (from memory, may have been the Sydney one).

 

[Yaiba]

When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
a) some stretching,

b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).

c) single man kata which we were all given a print-out (called scrolls) of the kata we should know by a certain rank...like by 9th kyu just taking a 45 degree and blocking etc

d)working the kata with a partner but wearing a mouth guard, mitts and groin guard, even though we were barely touching eachother

e)then there would be a sit-down time with a whiteboard were we discussed "concepts" There was a time when Wayne Roy came down for a seminar and he discussed the associations of being "lucky in love" or "lucky in business" with "lucky in combat"

f)then Richard cootes would either show some hojo but using an obi, or we would massage eachother, or we would work sakki by one person standing there while the other guy stood behind us and did a very slow punch to the back. The person with the back to the other would have to try and "feel the intent" and turn around.

In the year that I was there, I don't recall working anything else.

Chris, just to clarify,
I wasn't putting down this part of the training...I was just pointing out that it wasn't much different to other bujinkan classes I have attended.

Well, maybe it wasn't the clearest choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to imply that we had more Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that our entire syllabus is based on such systems, whereas the Bujinkan has them, plus more, leaving us as more "pure" Ninjutsu, and the Bujinkan both Ninjutsu and samurai (as I said, Ninjutsu Plus!).

Essentially, the argument is simple. If there is a restaurant that only serves French food, it is a French restaurant. If they serve French food, Italian food, and Spanish food, you may call them a European restaurant, or a Mediterranean restaurant, but to simply refer to them as a French restaurant would be to dismiss the rest that the establishment has to offer. Does that make more sense?

That makes more sense