(Striking) Why do some have timing and others don't?

[Steve]

That's because this is a bad comparison acrobats practice forms and movement used for acrobatics. Flexibility is a condition not a skill set.

Sure, but everyone is transferring skills in some way or another. Read about a person who trained for American Ninja Warrior who managed to defend herself from a person who was attacking her with a knife. She trained to compete in an obstacle course competition, but her strength, athleticism, and her competitive spirit transferred successfully to self defense. You may disagree, but I think this is just as effective, if not more so, than some self defense training programs.

If this thread is about timing, then can't we all agree that our timing improves when we apply skills? And isn't that one of the biggest concerns where a TMA doesn't actually train to fight? You've talked about this many times with Jow Ga.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There also may very well be a significant genetic component in that some people may be wired to develop good reflexes more easily and have a higher peak potential. I would argue that this is a less important factor than experience. Very few people ever reach anywhere close to their genetic potential in any sort of athletic endeavor or specific athletic attribute.

This seems almost inarguable. Take someone with ADHD (which is commonly accompanied by dyskinesia, and has a genetic component). Their lower baseline coordination will make it more difficult to develop timing than someone who starts from a more-coordinated baseline.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Proper range is what makes someone land a shot.. You see the opposite from mediocre fighters all the time. They can't land so they just throw and throw and throw and hope it eventually lands. So... What does this inability to gauge the proper distance have to do with their reflexes?

I'd argue that's (partly) a separate issue from timing. How someone trains will usually predict their ability to land by distance. If they don't hit things (with at least moderate force), they tend to be bad at judging the distance to hit things. If those things are static, they may still lack the timing.

Now, if they are throwing a bunch of punches because they can't get the timing to land one, they have a different problem: they're not trying to land a punch - they are punching and hoping one lands.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have they never landed a shot on anyone else in sparring for 4 years? If so, then maybe you could describe them as completely lacking in timing. Otherwise, the likely conclusion is just that your timing (and/or possibly other skills/attributes) has just been consistently better than theirs for all that time.

It's also possible they are afraid of getting hit, so staying too far away to land the punch. In which case, the issue isn't timing.

 

[dvcochran]

Sure, but everyone is transferring skills in some way or another. Read about a person who trained for American Ninja Warrior who managed to defend herself from a person who was attacking her with a knife. She trained to compete in an obstacle course competition, but her strength, athleticism, and her competitive spirit transferred successfully to self defense. You may disagree, but I think this is just as effective, if not more so, than some self defense training programs.

If this thread is about timing, then can't we all agree that our timing improves when we apply skills? And isn't that one of the biggest concerns where a TMA doesn't actually train to fight? You've talked about this many times with Jow Ga.

I was with you until the last statements.
I think what you are referring to is the mental component, and some people have this naturally more than others.
A person can learn/train to clear and focus their mind and subsequently their body for applying skills. In this respect they go hand in hand.
In a good martial arts program (traditional or otherwise) this type of training is fundamentals 101.
Something that is sorely missing in some purely fighting skills only schools.

 

[Steve]

This seems almost inarguable. Take someone with ADHD (which is commonly accompanied by dyskinesia, and has a genetic component). Their lower baseline coordination will make it more difficult to develop timing than someone who starts from a more-coordinated baseline.

I've never heard of a correlation between ADHD and dyskinesia before. Is that a real thing? I'm not a scholar on Asperger's and ADHD, but both are rampant on the Y chromosome in my family, and I'm unaware of anyone being diagnosed with dyskinesia. Maybe we're just lucky to be athletic nerds.

I was with you until the last statements.
I think what you are referring to is the mental component, and some people have this naturally more than others.
A person can learn/train to clear and focus their mind and subsequently their body for applying skills. In this respect they go hand in hand.
In a good martial arts program (traditional or otherwise) this type of training is fundamentals 101.
Something that is sorely missing in some purely fighting skills only schools.

I'm not sure where you're headed with this. But if it helps, I don't think there's any such thing as a "purely fighting skills only school." I don't think there even could be such a thing, or at least, not one that successfully teaches people to fight. This is like suggesting that there is such a thing as a "purely mental skills martial arts school." To be sure, I can think of some examples, but I don't think they're successful at all, either. That's the actual point I was making. You have to do both.

This is, by the way, the same for any skill set. You can't really prepare kids for wrestling or football without addressing both the physical skills and the mental preparedness. Good coaches do both.

 

[dvcochran]

I've never heard of a correlation between ADHD and dyskinesia before. Is that a real thing? I'm not a scholar on Asperger's and ADHD, but both are rampant on the Y chromosome in my family, and I'm unaware of anyone being diagnosed with dyskinesia. Maybe we're just lucky to be athletic nerds.



I'm not sure where you're headed with this. But if it helps, I don't think there's any such thing as a "purely fighting skills only school." I don't think there even could be such a thing, or at least, not one that successfully teaches people to fight. This is like suggesting that there is such a thing as a "purely mental skills martial arts school." To be sure, I can think of some examples, but I don't think they're successful at all, either. That's the actual point I was making. You have to do both.

This is, by the way, the same for any skill set. You can't really prepare kids for wrestling or football without addressing both the physical skills and the mental preparedness. Good coaches do both.

Fully agree which is why post makes your usual TMA bashing even more confusing. They conflict with each other don't they?
You have hit the nail on the head of what a good TMA's school consist of.

 

[Steve]

Fully agree which is why post makes your usual TMA bashing even more confusing. They conflict with each other don't they?
You have hit the nail on the head of what a good TMA's school consist of.

If you think I'm bashing TMAs and also that I'm describing good TMA schools... it's clear you're a little confused. I could try and explain what I mean, but it really sounds like you actually get it pretty clearly. I encourage you to presume good intent, read for understanding, and try not to jump to questionable conclusions. You'll get along better with everyone, me included.

 

[dvcochran]

If you think I'm bashing TMAs and also that I'm describing good TMA schools... it's clear you're a little confused. I could try and explain what I mean, but it really sounds like you actually get it pretty clearly. I encourage you to presume good intent, read for understanding, and try not to jump to questionable conclusions. You'll get along better with everyone, me included.

Please explain how I am jumping to conclusions? You consistently bash on TMA's.
Please try to explain what you mean because what I hear is in conflict.
You seem to be looking for it, but I am not being confrontational, much the opposite; just trying to clear up the ambiguity.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting,

This I agree with. The chances a karate fight is going to break out in the streets is slim. A martial arts system should be trained for use against other systems. The first step is to train General fighting strikes and grappling.

Sure, but everyone is transferring skills in some way or another. Read about a person who trained for American Ninja Warrior who managed to defend herself from a person who was attacking her with a knife. She trained to compete in an obstacle course competition, but her strength, athleticism, and her competitive spirit transferred successfully to self defense. You may disagree, but I think this is just as effective, if not more so, than some self defense training programs.

If this thread is about timing, then can't we all agree that our timing improves when we apply skills? And isn't that one of the biggest concerns where a TMA doesn't actually train to fight? You've talked about this many times with Jow Ga.

Flexibility is still not a skill set. It's conditioning. No one sees a Flexible person who can stick their legs behind their head and thinks. "I bet they will be good at fighting."

 

[Steve]

This I agree with. The chances a karate fight is going to break out in the streets is slim. A martial arts system should be trained for use against other systems. The first step is to train General fighting strikes and grappling.

Flexibility is still not a skill set. It's conditioning. No one sees a Flexible person who can stick their legs behind their head and thinks. "I bet they will be good at fighting."

Maybe not but you can look at a person who lacks flexibility and say, “that lack of flexibility impedes that persons ability to fight.” And flexibility, like timing, is a by product of the activity that develops the skill. Right?

 

[Steve]

Please explain how I am jumping to conclusions? You consistently bash on TMA's.
Please try to explain what you mean because what I hear is in conflict.
You seem to be looking for it, but I am not being confrontational, much the opposite; just trying to clear up the ambiguity.

No thanks. I’m not the guy with the problem here and I’m certainly not going to indulge you in your trolling. But when you’re ready to be friendly and civil, I will be happy to see it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Flexibility, hard hands, cardio, strength are important, but are not fighting skills.

They are elements of conditioning that make it easier to obtain fighting skills. A fit person can still lack the ability to fight and defend themselves. Weak people have been known to be able to defend themselves against physical attack.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Maybe not but you can look at a person who lacks flexibility and say, “that lack of flexibility impedes that persons ability to fight.” And flexibility, like timing, is a by product of the activity that develops the skill. Right?

I'm not that flexible. It doesn't make me a good representation of my best fighting condition, but I can still bring the pain. Many people are like that. There are alot of people who can't kick higher than their knee who still can knock someone out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've never heard of a correlation between ADHD and dyskinesia before. Is that a real thing? I'm not a scholar on Asperger's and ADHD, but both are rampant on the Y chromosome in my family, and I'm unaware of anyone being diagnosed with dyskinesia. Maybe we're just lucky to be athletic nerds.

It apparently is a thing. Mine is largely masked by so much time spent training and playing sports, but as my wife can attest, I'm still awfully clumsy in some pretty specific ways. As with everything ADHD it's a matter of degrees. If the dyskinesia (I'm having a really hard time typing that today) is relatively mild, then it can be masked by developed skill, much as higher intelligence allows ADHD to go undetected in some kids, since they do well enough in school nothing is suspected.

 

[dvcochran]

No thanks. I’m not the guy with the problem here and I’m certainly not going to indulge you in your trolling. But when you’re ready to be friendly and civil, I will be happy to see it.

I really don't even know what 'troll' means in this context, & civil is not in your vernacular most often. You always get a rise out of trying to twist things.
I really don't think you understand what you type sometimes. Are you trying to imply that you never dog on TMA's?

I am most often friendly; blunt, stern, but friendly. I am sorry that you seem to have a problem with this, and with someone calling you out on a comment. Have you forgotten this is an open forum?

Remember, I am not the one trying to escalate this.

 

[dvcochran]

Flexibility, hard hands, cardio, strength are important, but are not fighting skills.

They are elements of conditioning that make it easier to obtain fighting skills. A fit person can still lack the ability to fight and defend themselves. Weak people have been known to be able to defend themselves against physical attack.

True, but inversely you can take a seasoned, experience fighter that is out of practice, out of shape, and aged and they will not perform very well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really don't even know what 'troll' means in this context, & civil is not in your vernacular most often. You always get a rise out of trying to twist things.
I really don't think you understand what you type sometimes. Are you trying to imply that you never dog on TMA's?

I am most often friendly; blunt, stern, but friendly. I am sorry that you seem to have a problem with this, and with someone calling you out on a comment. Have you forgotten this is an open forum?

Remember, I am not the one trying to escalate this.

My take is that Steve has an issue mostly with styles/schools that don't include competition as part of their approach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It apparently is a thing. Mine is largely masked by so much time spent training and playing sports, but as my wife can attest, I'm still awfully clumsy in some pretty specific ways. As with everything ADHD it's a matter of degrees. If the dyskinesia (I'm having a really hard time typing that today) is relatively mild, then it can be masked by developed skill, much as higher intelligence allows ADHD to go undetected in some kids, since they do well enough in school nothing is suspected.

Do you happen to have any studies on this? I haven't heard of it, but don't doubt there could be a relationship there. I do know that certain medications also used for adhd can cause dyskinesia, just haven't heard of adhd itself being correlated.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Friendly, non-official reminder to try to focus on the arguments posters are making, rather than the poster that's making them.