(Striking) Why do some have timing and others don't?

Dirty Dog

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dvcochran

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I forget the user name but their avatar was a creepy clown on this forum. If it was not for your spelling (which is usually correct) I would swear you were the same person.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I forget the user name but their avatar was a creepy clown on this forum. If it was not for your spelling (which is usually correct) I would swear you were the same person.
That was jobo. He didn't care nearly as much about TKD, just as needlessly argumentative though.
 
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Not as far as I know. Just no longer on this forum.

Anyway, is it your experience that your sense of timing changed radically with practise? I don't share that... Starting from when I could perform the techniques, my timing hasn't really got better or worse from when I started. I could time shots perfectly well as a beginner.

The fact that I can't even differentiate second year to third year to forth year is a testiment to the fact that whatever progress I made was very miniscule...
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Anyway, is it your experience that your sense of timing changed radically with practise? I don't share that... Starting from when I could perform the techniques, my timing hasn't really got better or worse from when I started. I could time shots perfectly well as a beginner.

The fact that I can't even differentiate second year to third year to forth year is a testiment to the fact that whatever progress I made was very miniscule...
Radical change within the first like year and a half or so, then after that gradual. It's also what I've noticed as a general rule (there are exceptions of people who get timing pretty quickly, and others that just always struggle) for other students.

Quality of practice also matters though. If you spend most of your time sparring people worse than you, or too much better than you, or just ineffective/non-existent sparring you might not notice any improvements either.
 
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InfiniteLoop

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Radical change within the first like year and a half or so, then after that gradual. It's also what I've noticed as a general rule (there are exceptions of people who get timing pretty quickly, and others that just always struggle) for other students.

Quality of practice also matters though. If you spend most of your time sparring people worse than you, or too much better than you, or just ineffective/non-existent sparring you might not notice any improvements either.

The strange thing about MA philosophy is this notion that form and fighting go hand in hand. Yet when you think about it, it doesn't make sense.

If I said that an acrobat can fight due to perfect control and flexibility, nobody would take me seriously. Yet in MA, they don't see that it's the same disconnect. Striking something that is moving is a completely different activity from striking air or an inanimate target.

And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting, since that's not how real fighting goes. Same with Judo.

MMA rules should have been there from the getgo. Yet using mma rules is an exception to MA schools.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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The strange thing about MA philosophy is this notion that form and fighting go hand in hand. Yet when you think about it, it doesn't make sense.

If I said that an acrobat can fight due to perfect control and flexibility, nobody would take me seriously. Yet in MA, they don't see that it's the same disconnect. Striking something that is moving is a completely different activity from striking air or an inanimate target.

And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting, since that's not how real fighting goes. Same with Judo.

MMA rules should have been there from the getgo. Yet using mma rules is an exception to MA schools.
This is why we need more clackledockling schools.
 

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The strange thing about MA philosophy is this notion that form and fighting go hand in hand. Yet when you think about it, it doesn't make sense.

If I said that an acrobat can fight due to perfect control and flexibility, nobody would take me seriously. Yet in MA, they don't see that it's the same disconnect. Striking something that is moving is a completely different activity from striking air or an inanimate target.

And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting, since that's not how real fighting goes. Same with Judo.

MMA rules should have been there from the getgo. Yet using mma rules is an exception to MA schools.

I agree in principle, but think it's a little more nuanced than this. I mean, if you were to say to me that an acrobat could perform better in hand to hand combat than an MMA-ist with roughly the same level of experience, I think we could agree that the answer is probably not. But if you suggest that they can't fight, I'd disagree. A skilled acrobat definitely has some transferable skill and ability. Shoot, if nothing else, just being agile, flexible, strong, and in shape is going to give a person a leg up on most.

Going a little further, I would guess that a skilled acrobat will have more transferrable skills than someone who learns only forms. The physicality and skills gained from being an acrobat are, IMO, more similar to a fight than strictly doing forms.
 

isshinryuronin

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The strange thing about MA philosophy is this notion that form and fighting go hand in hand. Yet when you think about it, it doesn't make sense.
Practicing combination striking, angles, takedowns, power generation, etc. on your own seems to make some sense. Don't you think doing these things will aid in fighting ability, along with other training like training heavy bag, two man drills and sparring? Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you don't really understand TMA forms.
Striking something that is moving is a completely different activity from striking air or an inanimate target.
Just add angles, footwork, distance control and timing. Simple. Just like it's simple for most of us to understand training has to include various methods to round out our skills.
And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting, since that's not how real fighting goes.
I think most boxers train almost exclusively with other boxers. I guess Sugar Ray, Ken Norton, Joe Frazier and others never amounted to anything or really learned to fight since they sparred with others in the same art they were doing. If they ever came up against a non-boxer, I sure they would all fold like a fan, helpless. Boy, did those guy train in "such a dumb way."
MMA rules should have been there from the getgo. Yet using mma rules is an exception to MA schools.
MMA rules should have been where from the getgo? In 1500 Shaolin temples, 1800 Okinawa, 1930 Japanese public school karate clubs, 1965 American commercial MA dojo's? The earliest professional MMA fighters were "no holds barred" brawlers, but were replaced by TMA practioners, who later crosstrained as the sport and its rules evolved to what it is today.

Most people you would likely fight outside the gym are not MMA trained, so why do MMA fighters train against other MMA fighters? By your logic in the previous quote this would be "dumb." And if MMA rules were used in all other MA schools, as you suggest, MMA would become the only martial art! Is this what you are advocating?

I've learned that the more people blather on, the less they say.
 
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seasoned

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The strange thing about MA philosophy is this notion that form and fighting go hand in hand. Yet when you think about it, it doesn't make sense.

If I said that an acrobat can fight due to perfect control and flexibility, nobody would take me seriously. Yet in MA, they don't see that it's the same disconnect. Striking something that is moving is a completely different activity from striking air or an inanimate target.

And striking someone who is doing the same martial arts as you are is such a dumb way to learn fighting, since that's not how real fighting goes. Same with Judo.

MMA rules should have been there from the getgo. Yet using mma rules is an exception to MA schools.
Your post has merit. But as a long time instructor there is a lot more to martial arts then fighting. Sure, coming through the dojo door the fascination is definitely there to be better able to handle yourself in the uncertainty of the world we find our self in.
I'm friends with a long ago student that had an accident 5 years ago, lost a leg and this is what he had to say in a face book post about me today...........
"Tremendous thanks for the lessons you taught me about drive, focus ,perseverance and digging down deep". I will be forever thankful"......

Made my day.........
 
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JowGaWolf

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If I said that an acrobat can fight due to perfect control and flexibility, nobody would take me seriously.
That's because this is a bad comparison acrobats practice forms and movement used for acrobatics. Flexibility is a condition not a skill set.
 
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InfiniteLoop

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Your post has merit. But as a long time instructor there is a lot more to martial arts then fighting. Sure, coming through the dojo door the fascination is definitely there to be better able to handle yourself in the uncertainty of the world we find our self in.
I'm friends with a long ago student that had an accident 5 years ago, lost a leg and this is what he had to say in a face book post about me today...........
"Tremendous thanks for the lessons you taught me about drive, focus ,perseverance and digging down deep". I will be forever thankful"......

Made my day.........

I agree that self improvement is huge and that fighting shouldn't be the main reason for training. That said, TMA are marketed as self defense....

There's a martial arts instructor who made the discovery when switching from Aikido to Judo, that the more beautiful something is, the less effective it's prone to be in a free setting. I find this to be true about striking as well.

Compare MMA to Boxing. Boxing is beautiful when performed by the best technicians, but that's precisely because you can't do anything else but punch.

TaeKwonDo is hugely technical when it comes to kicks, precisely because both fighters primarily kick, and never to the legs, which would suddenly make it a lot dirtier.

Judo is very beautiful and clinical because you can't pull guard or attack the legs (these days) or strike.

and it goes on and on..
 

seasoned

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I agree that self improvement is huge and that fighting shouldn't be the main reason for training. That said, TMA are marketed as self defense....

There's a martial arts instructor who made the discovery when switching from Aikido to Judo, that the more beautiful something is, the less effective it's prone to be in a free setting. I find this to be true about striking as well.

Compare MMA to Boxing. Boxing is beautiful when performed by the best technicians, but that's precisely because you can't do anything else but punch.

TaeKwonDo is hugely technical when it comes to kicks, precisely because both fighters primarily kick, and never to the legs, which would suddenly make it a lot dirtier.

Judo is very beautiful and clinical because you can't pull guard or attack the legs (these days) or strike.

and it goes on and on..
Self improvement in any good dojo is definitely a by product of the training so as to train the whole of the student. My mantra has always been "you learn to fight well so you have a better option to not have to fight". Once that confidence is built into the student they become a much better asset to society as a whole. Martial arts is a weapon and as any weapon it should be thought of as such. Use it as a last resort and then and only then do you take a knee and gouge eyes, but then, I digress....
 

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isshinryuronin

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Everybody has timing
While in college, I swung by a girl's place with whom I had a one night stand a couple of days earlier and was hoping for a repeat (just happened to be at the right place at the right time - good timing.) She was home..... and so was her husband - bad timing. Probably more than one lesson to be learned here.
 
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