Sports relation to Self Defence.

[Xue Sheng]

First, nice post Daniel...

now for something completely different

No offense to anyone here, but I kind of notice an extreme point of view that runs through a lot of these threads: there seem to be only drunks and competitive/pro fighters.

But you failed to take into consideration the drunken competitive/pro fighter... and what about pointed sticks

Actually, truth be known I have run into that twice (drunken competitive/pro fighter... not pointed sticks ). Once via a report I had to read form a guy I worked with that got the living daylights beat out of him and another time directly when one charged straight at me. However since even though he was a competitive/pro fighter the drunken part seemed to be in control so a side step and a trip worked really well

Of course case one the guy was a boxer… case two the guy was WWF when that was wrestling

 

[ATC]

Comparing sport fighting to real life events just doesn`t work for me. Real MA is not pretty,its ugly and dirty and if i started rolling about the floor trying for this arm lock or tried to fly kick all over the place my sifu would give me a few slaps and tell me to sit down and that we are traing for the street.

Many of the so called sport only guys can get you in an arm bar or neck choke of sorts from a standing position. Don't let what you see on TV fool you. Those are pros vs. pros. Not a pro vs. some unexpected thug. The only reason those guys go to the ground on tv is because they need time to work against another of the same caliber. Those dudes can fight and are in tip top shape. Plus they can punch you in the face real real hard.

 

[MJS]

And that's my point.......there has to be a way to truly test the equipment without having to rely on 'My master said it would work' or 'my master's cousins uncles nephews next door neighbor once used this in the means streets of south Boston.'

Exactly! Personally, I hate that. I really dont care if it works/worked for my teacher, his teacher, and their teachers teacher....I want to know that it works for ME.

 

[MJS]

No MA will have your prepared for EVERY situation.....but my goal is to prepare for as many as possible. Training simply to be able to deal with a geriatric drunk isn't enough for me, in my line of work. Your mileage may vary.

Right again. I want to train for the worst case possible. We may not face that evil twin of Royce Gracie, but, well, I'll refer to that old saying...."I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and wish I had it." It'd be my luck some night, walking to my car, that some nutjob comes at me and he's actually got some skill under his belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right again. I want to train for the worst case possible.

While I agree, most of the training received in the dojo, gym, or whatever you call your studio, will really not prepare you for the worst case scenario.

We may not face that evil twin of Royce Gracie, but, well, I'll refer to that old saying...."I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and wish I had it." It'd be my luck some night, walking to my car, that some nutjob comes at me and he's actually got some skill under his belt.

And Royce Gracie's evil twin is not remotely close to the worst case scenario.

The worst case scenario is actually more common (compared to professional fighters-turned-mugger). A worst case scenario is a gunman who's a good shot wth a steady hand more than three feet but less than ten from you. Pointing his gun an you (perhaps due to that elusive Linda Lou?)

There are no credible gun defenses that I have seen that involves the gunman being further than three feet from you. None that I'd want to bet my life on at least. And within ten, diving for cover or running is probably not likely to be successful.

Or, since we're talking extremes of unliklihood, an unassuming person taking a seat in a restaurant at the busy time suddenly exploding. This may be more common in some parts of the world than in others, but I'd wager that even in the US you'd face a greater chance of that happening than of Randy Couture suddenly going thug. And there is no trainable defense against this. Lots of ways for law enforcement and the military to try to head them off before the fact, but once they've taken a seat, it really doesn't matter if everyone in the restaurant is an MMA champ.

Daniel

 

[Rion]

I just think that some things you cant train for,not unless your a solider you wont ever get that real sense of danger in your sparing. So like Dan said the best MA is just talking your way out of it.

 

[Steve]

I just think that some things you cant train for,not unless your a solider you wont ever get that real sense of danger in your sparing. So like Dan said the best MA is just talking your way out of it.

I have a black belt in conflict resolution and mediation. If you sign a 2 year contract, I'll guarantee you a black belt in that time.

 

[sgtmac_46]

No offense to anyone here, but I kind of notice an extreme point of view that runs through a lot of these threads: there seem to be only drunks and competitive/pro fighters.

I'm sure that people don't actually believe that (maybe some do), but those are the two groups that seem to get mentioned the most. I think that there is a whole lot of possibilities between drunken thugs and the competitive/pro fighter.

Most of your opponents on the street are almost as unlikely to be drunks as they are to be pro fighters. The most likely altercation with a drunk is one where a pro fighter will be at an equal disadvantage: a drunk driver.

Another issue is that on most forums, "the street" seems to be very poorly defined, and as near as I can tell, includes your living room, where drunken uncles have inexplicably parked thmselves and where terrorist attacks and gang hits are a constant threat. Apparenlty, "the cage" is the street in miniature. Seemingly the only place not the street is "the dojo," and if you're anywhere outside of the dojo, you'd better be trained like Batman and have all of the accompanying items that go with the suit and body armor capable of stopping a .50 caliber round.

I agree with sgtmac_46: most opponents on the street are untrained and unmotivated. Absolutely true. Opponents outside of training will fall into two categories: non criminals with whom a disagreement has gotten out of control and become a physical altercation (alcohol is unlikely to be involved) or criminals perpetrating a criminal act.

In the case of the former, hard sparring is going to serve you very, very well, provided there are no weapons involved. Throw in guns and knives and unless you've trained to deal with them specifically, the pro fighter is at as much of a disadvantage as the untrained citizen. Regardless, it is usually non-martial skills that make the difference. Non-martial skills are what head these encounters off most of the time, even with drunks. If you want to train in the ____-fu that will effectively protect you in most curcumstances, train in verbal-fu. That and common sense about where one goes and when one travels.

In the case of the latter, actual criminals, I will contend that being a competitive or pro fighter offers you zip and that hard sparring offers you as much advantage as no sparring. Yes, there are exceptions. I love Bill's posts in the self defense section about people with martial arts backgrounds effectively stopping actual criminals with their MA training. These are extraordinary people. And their circumstances are also extraordinary exceptions.

Most (not all) criminals are untrained and unmotivated, so they succeed by taking advantage of circumstances. They avoid circumstances where they are likely to fail. That is why the little old lady with a purse is much more attractive as a target than you are to an unarmed mugger. A guy who wants to rob you will either hold you at gunpoint, pick your pocket and get away, or have buddies, thus avoiding any confrontation that would directly expose him to your ability as a fighter.

Fact is that criminals are like predatory animals. They calculate their targets based on chance of success. Elderly and children are the most vulnerable. Of those in between, women are a more likely target than men. Smaller men or really out of shape men are a more likely target than a man in good condition or a larger man. Confedence plays a part too. They nervous, scared of his or her own shadow person, regardless of gender, is more of a target than the confident person. Thus the confidence building of the ATA and many commercial studios can serve a student very well by itself.

Then there are ambush predators. They lay in wait on jogging trails or watch the crowds for a good mark.

If drunken thugs are what I am encountering most of the time, chances are, I'm hanging out in the wrong part of town or frequenting the bar too often. I train pretty hard. and can handle myself against a lot more than a drunken thug in a straight up fight. But verbal skills, alertness, and common sense are my street proven methods of staying alive.

If I'm being jumped by a pro fighter, chances are I've stepped into the ring. competitive fighters generally don't go around jumping people.

I don't remember who said this, but it was in another thread: '99% of the time, verbal skills, alertness, and common sense will keep you out of trouble. We train for the 1% of the time that those skills are not suffiicient.'

Daniel

You have some good points here, and some I disagree with.........but allow me to correct one very glaring point on which you are mistaken. If you look at the statistics on assaults, you'll find that the VAST majority of them involve alcohol and/or drug useage during the time of the assault.

You'll find that's consistent whether you're talking about the United States, Canada, Britain, Scotland, etc, etc, etc.........alcohol breeds violence. Where there is alcohol, there will be violence.

So, the odds are, if one finds themselves in a disagreement with someone, there is a strong likelihood that the person's judgement is impaired by alcohol and/or drug use......that's often what fuels these type of encounters.

Based on published studies, Roizen (3) summarized the percentages of violent offenders who were drinking at the time of the offense as follows: up to 86 percent of homicide offenders, 37 percent of assault offenders, 60 percent of sexual offenders, up to 57 percent of men and 27 percent of women involved in marital violence, and 13 percent of child abusers. These figures are the upper limits of a wide range of estimates. In a community-based study, Pernanen (4) found that 42 percent of violent crimes reported to the police involved alcohol, although 51 percent of the victims interviewed believed that their assailants had been drinking.

http://www.athealth.com/consumer/disorders/angeralcohol.html

http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/violence.htm

http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/abuse/a/blniaaa040303.htm

Now, that strong correlation between alcohol and violence might be surprising to the lay person........those of us in the public safety field, though, consider it a simple fact of life.

The startling statistic may be that 60% of sexual assaults involve intoxicated assailants.

Now, how that correlates to our actual response to violence is a more complicated matter, other than to say that one of the best ways to avoid violence, is to avoid folks who are drinking.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Many of the so called sport only guys can get you in an arm bar or neck choke of sorts from a standing position. Don't let what you see on TV fool you. Those are pros vs. pros. Not a pro vs. some unexpected thug. The only reason those guys go to the ground on tv is because they need time to work against another of the same caliber. Those dudes can fight and are in tip top shape. Plus they can punch you in the face real real hard.

That's exactly the point......one need look no further than Bas Rutten.......if anyone doubts his abilities in the ring our out, they need to think again.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Right again. I want to train for the worst case possible. We may not face that evil twin of Royce Gracie, but, well, I'll refer to that old saying...."I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and wish I had it." It'd be my luck some night, walking to my car, that some nutjob comes at me and he's actually got some skill under his belt.

Yep......and that's why diversity of training is important. I can't out grapple Royce.......but maybe I can out knife him, and i'm pretty sure I can out shoot him. Never play your opponents game, but you have to be able to play enough games well to at least figure out what your opponents game is.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I look at the benefit of MMA to practical self defense, especially as it pertains to law enforcement and the military, the same way I look at how Formula 1 racing relates to police and military crisis vehicle handling.

Now, sure, there are no stop lights, or busy intersections in Formula 1 racing.........but the realties of handling a race car at 160 mph translate directly to operating other vehicles at high speed very clearly.

Moreover, since no one else on the planet spends that much time operating vehicles at those speeds as race car drivers, they become THE default experts on the PRACTICAL realities of maneuvering and handling at those speeds.

The reality is that one assumes that police officers are experts at high speed driving.........but the fact is a very SMALL amount of time is actually spent by officers operating cars at those high end speeds, just as a very small amount of time is spent wrestling with bad guys.

So, when we go to determine the practical physics of performing either function, we have to look at folks who do it ALOT! For driving, we look at the experiences and techniques of race car drivers, and apply those lessons to our modality.

The same with MMA fighters. Both are 'just' sports.......but both have near limitless cross discipline application as long as we know how to apply it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You have some good points here, and some I disagree with.........but allow me to correct one very glaring point on which you are mistaken. If you look at the statistics on assaults, you'll find that the VAST majority of them involve alcohol and/or drug useage during the time of the assault.

You'll find that's consistent whether you're talking about the United States, Canada, Britain, Scotland, etc, etc, etc.........alcohol breeds violence. Where there is alcohol, there will be violence.

So, the odds are, if one finds themselves in a disagreement with someone, there is a strong likelihood that the person's judgement is impaired by alcohol and/or drug use......that's often what fuels these type of encounters.



Now, that strong correlation between alcohol and violence might be surprising to the lay person........those of us in the public safety field, though, consider it a simple fact of life.

The startling statistic may be that 60% of sexual assaults involve intoxicated assailants.

Now, how that correlates to our actual response to violence is a more complicated matter, other than to say that one of the best ways to avoid violence, is to avoid folks who are drinking.

Interesting. I appreciate the stats.

I have never agreed with the argument that in self defense, one should go easy on a drunk or find creative ways to handle a drunk without doing serious and/or permanent injury. This reinforces my opinion.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

While I agree, most of the training received in the dojo, gym, or whatever you call your studio, will really not prepare you for the worst case scenario.

I'd say that it'd depend on the school.

And Royce Gracie's evil twin is not remotely close to the worst case scenario.

The worst case scenario is actually more common (compared to professional fighters-turned-mugger). A worst case scenario is a gunman who's a good shot wth a steady hand more than three feet but less than ten from you. Pointing his gun an you (perhaps due to that elusive Linda Lou?)

My point was simply this....many times, when dicussing who we're likely to face on the street, people always give the impression that you'll be facing ones that Sgtmac mentioned...the geriatric drunks. My point was while we may not face a highly trained fighter every time, we wont always be facing the geriatrics either.

There are no credible gun defenses that I have seen that involves the gunman being further than three feet from you. None that I'd want to bet my life on at least. And within ten, diving for cover or running is probably not likely to be successful.

Agreed. So, you wait until the opportunity presents itself. If it never does, then it never does. I have never said anywhere on here, that training in the martial arts will make you a Superman.

Or, since we're talking extremes of unliklihood, an unassuming person taking a seat in a restaurant at the busy time suddenly exploding. This may be more common in some parts of the world than in others, but I'd wager that even in the US you'd face a greater chance of that happening than of Randy Couture suddenly going thug. And there is no trainable defense against this. Lots of ways for law enforcement and the military to try to head them off before the fact, but once they've taken a seat, it really doesn't matter if everyone in the restaurant is an MMA champ.

Daniel

Not sure where this is all coming from, or what point you're trying to make, but you seem to be mistaking me for someone who thinks that I'm in the Superman club. Again, not the case at all. As for the Randy comment...again, I'll say that due to the MMA craze, its very possible that the person you're facing, will have some grappling, MMA experience. Wrestling is taught in many high schools nowadays. Again, the possibility of facing a grappler is there, despite some people not wanting to see it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd say that it'd depend on the school.

Depends on how you define worst case scenario.

My point was simply this....many times, when dicussing who we're likely to face on the street, people always give the impression that you'll be facing ones that Sgtmac mentioned...the geriatric drunks. My point was while we may not face a highly trained fighter every time, we wont always be facing the geriatrics either.

I generally think that the majority fall somewhere in between.

Agreed. So, you wait until the opportunity presents itself. If it never does, then it never does. I have never said anywhere on here, that training in the martial arts will make you a Superman.

Absolutely. but the martial arts=Superman wasn't what I was getting at.

Not sure where this is all coming from, or what point you're trying to make, but you seem to be mistaking me for someone who thinks that I'm in the Superman club. Again, not the case at all.

Apologies; I guess that didn't come out well.

No; I was talking about the extremes of the geriatric drunk and the Royce Gracie evil. Not you. When you said, 'worse case scenario,' Royce Gracie's evil twin is not what comes to mind.

What I was getting at with the gun comment and the bomber comment was that those are two scenarios where MA training, no matter how good, is of little to no use, thus 'worst case' in my book.

As for the Randy comment...again, I'll say that due to the MMA craze, its very possible that the person you're facing, will have some grappling, MMA experience. Wrestling is taught in many high schools nowadays. Again, the possibility of facing a grappler is there, despite some people not wanting to see it.

Most definitely possible that it is there. It wasn't the liklihood of grappling that I was addressing (I agree with you 100% on that) but the liklihood of being mugged by a fighter of Randy's level of training. Any professional fighter's name could be used. I picked Randy because his name is recognized.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Depends on how you define worst case scenario.

Thats kinda open-ended, no? Some will probably think there are situations we can't prepare for, as I believe was mentioned somewhere in this thread. Interestingly enough, and I know some like him, some hate, him, but anyways, Jim Wagner talks alot about things such as terrorism, in his BB magazine articles. Some people may not think its interesting when he talks about hand grenades, but some may.

I generally think that the majority fall somewhere in between.

This is why I want to train for the geriatric drunk as well as the 21yo who spent the past 5yrs at the MMA gym. As well as the guy talking **** in a bar, the guy that tries to mug me, carjack me, etc.

Absolutely. but the martial arts=Superman wasn't what I was getting at.

Could you clarify then?

Apologies; I guess that didn't come out well.

No; I was talking about the extremes of the geriatric drunk and the Royce Gracie evil. Not you. When you said, 'worse case scenario,' Royce Gracie's evil twin is not what comes to mind.

No prob. Things do get misundersottd on here all the time. I suppose we could sub. Gracies twin with 'a person, not necessarily a pro mma fighter, but someone who spent time wrestling in highschool and college.' For example...a good friend of mine, who I used to train with in Kenpo, wrestled in HS as well as college. One night, after class, we did some grappling. At the time, I didn't have much BJJ training under my belt, so it wasn't a good outcome for me. Would it be any better today? Dont know, but I think I could say that I'd feel a bit more comfortable.

What I was getting at with the gun comment and the bomber comment was that those are two scenarios where MA training, no matter how good, is of little to no use, thus 'worst case' in my book.

I'd say this is a bit moot and a bit of a strawman, due to the fact that as I've said before, no amount of training, turns us into untouchables. It will give us the advantage, but nothing says that after 20yrs, I still wont get my *** kicked.

Most definitely possible that it is there. It wasn't the liklihood of grappling that I was addressing (I agree with you 100% on that) but the liklihood of being mugged by a fighter of Randy's level of training. Any professional fighter's name could be used. I picked Randy because his name is recognized.

Daniel

Again, I think the use of a name, was misunderstood.

 

[Tez3]

How common is it to do wrestling in your schools? Is it a common sport? I'm curious after reading the previous post and was wondering if meeting someone who'd done wrestling at school was a common thing. Is it regarded as a martial art or a sport such as running, swimming etc?

 

[MJS]

How common is it to do wrestling in your schools? Is it a common sport? I'm curious after reading the previous post and was wondering if meeting someone who'd done wrestling at school was a common thing. Is it regarded as a martial art or a sport such as running, swimming etc?

http://www.wesleyan.edu/athletics/wrestling/

http://www.middletownsports.org/mhswrestling/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avon_High_School_(Connecticut)

http://www.ctsportswriters.org/10%20CT%20Wrest%20Records.pdf

http://www.wyomingseminary.org/page.cfm?p=613

http://www.iptv.org/wrestling/

The first 4 are all in CT, the last 2 out of state. When I was in high school, we did not have a Wrestling team, however, we did have other sports, ie: basketball, baseball.

*edit* Just to further explain, I would say the wrestling falls into the sports group, along with football, basktball, baseball, etc.

 

[Hudson69]

I think your comment on how you train sums it up. There are so many gripes about Budo Taijutsu not allowing sparring/randori and I feel they are justified. On the other hand there are numerous gripes about TKD being all sport and not usable on the street.

I think that sparring is a very useful tool but do it with a goal in mind. If you are sport oriented admit it. If you are street defense oriented then traing that way. You can probably do both but I need to train one way so that sport "thought" doesn't interfere with self defense "thought."

My .02 only

 

[ATC]

How common is it to do wrestling in your schools? Is it a common sport? I'm curious after reading the previous post and was wondering if meeting someone who'd done wrestling at school was a common thing. Is it regarded as a martial art or a sport such as running, swimming etc?

Where I come from it is very common. It is not mandatory to join the team but just about every school had a team. Just like football, basketball, and baseball there are only so many slots available on the team so you have to try out and get picked. Usually only 3 slots per weight class and that is it. So if you look at the ratio of athletes to students it would be very small. If you had a school of 2000 students maybe 10-15 would be on the team. Not a lot if you look at it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

How common is it to do wrestling in your schools? Is it a common sport? I'm curious after reading the previous post and was wondering if meeting someone who'd done wrestling at school was a common thing. Is it regarded as a martial art or a sport such as running, swimming etc?

Wrestling is as common as football in some parts of the US. It's a growing school sport where I live, one my son will probably start next year at the local wrestling club when he turns 5.

As for what wrestling is regarded as, on the high school and college level it's viewed as a sport such as running and swimming, but obviously, it's unlike them in the fact that it's also clearly a martial art........one of the oldest and most enduring in existence.