Sport Vs. KKW

[terryl965]

Ok puunui maybe I am reading to much into the post so for that I apologies, just for the record who is DD? I guess I mis-read your post when you was saying I should be listening to seniors, also never said you skipped Dan with USAT but I know a few that did and believe me they idid not deserve that rank at least in my opinion.


Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?

I will get back on the topics at hand and go from there. You kinda say the Olympics are over but did they not just renew it until 2024 and if I am wrong sorry but I could have swore it was being done until then and then re-discuss again.

 

[d1jinx]

Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?

.

MNA (Member National Association) USAT is our MNA in the WTF

this could be a blessing or can of worms if the WTF would choose a different group to represent the US in the olympics instead of the one the USOC blessed.

Hard one to say if it would be good or bad.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

To say there is no difference between sport and non-sport tkd is just ludicrous. I dont do sport tkd and the very first thing we are taught is to always keep your guard up. No matter what we are doing, if you lower your guard you will be yelled at. Then I watch olympic sparring and they have their hands down around their waist, it goes against every rule of self defence. Tks is a martial art, it teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner, olympic tkd is a game and does not even begin to resemble tkd. I have nothing against olympic tkd and i admire the athleticism and endurance required to do such a sport, but to call it a martial art is just misleading. Until they give 'sport tkd' a separate name there just wont be unification because its like saying tennis and squash are the same thing because they both use a raquet.

 

[puunui]

who is DD?

DD stands for Dojang Digest. It was a email mailing list run by Ray Terry. It closed a year or two ago.

Let me re ask this question what is a MNA?

MNA stands for Member National Association. It is a WTF term to identify what the USOC calls NGB, or National Governing Body. USAT is the Member National Association for the WTF in the United States, and is the national governing body for taekwondo under the USOC.

IYou kinda say the Olympics are over but did they not just renew it until 2024 and if I am wrong sorry but I could have swore it was being done until then and then re-discuss again.

We don't know if Taekwondo will be out of the Olympics. it is too soon to tell and there hasn't been a vote. What I did say was that Dr. Kim told us last year that the IOC hates Taekwondo, and that its continued inclusion in the Olympic Games isn't guaranteed. Also, the WTF President Choue isn't respected in the international sports community. All of that adds up to a shaky future. So in order to counter that, we need to do everything we can to maintain taekwondo's stability and structure, and present a unified happy face to the IOC.

 

[puunui]

this could be a blessing or can of worms if the WTF would choose a different group to represent the US in the olympics instead of the one the USOC blessed.

The problem comes in if WTF chooses one group and a country's NOC chooses another group. At the Olympic Games and the regional Games like Pan American Games, the NOC chooses the participants. So if the NOC selection group chooses the olympic athletes for an Olympic Games, then do they go, because the selection wasn't done by the WTF MNA. So there is that conflict. I believe Australia is facing this dilemma right now. We have to see how it plays out in Australia.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The funny thing is that my daughter had been doing tkd for a couple of years when the last olympics was on. I was sitting and watching the tkd and she came in and watched it with me and after about 15 minutes she said "wow, this looks cool, whats the name of this sport?". She actually does tkd and yet it is unrecognisable to her. The same reason our GM severed all ties with the kukkiwon 10 years ago.

 

[puunui]

To say there is no difference between sport and non-sport tkd is just ludicrous. I dont do sport tkd and the very first thing we are taught is to always keep your guard up. No matter what we are doing, if you lower your guard you will be yelled at.

If you don't do "sport tkd", then how can you make a comparison?

Then I watch olympic sparring and they have their hands down around their waist, it goes against every rule of self defence.

What about poomsae? Poomsae starts with your hands around your waist. Does that goes against every rule of self defense as well?

Tks is a martial art, it teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner,

Is that what a martial art is to you, something that teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner?

olympic tkd is a game and does not even begin to resemble tkd. I have nothing against olympic tkd and i admire the athleticism and endurance required to do such a sport, but to call it a martial art is just misleading. Until they give 'sport tkd' a separate name there just wont be unification because its like saying tennis and squash are the same thing because they both use a raquet.

The "Do" suffix on martial arts comes from japanese martial arts; and the funny thing about that is that the original use of it was for sports, like Judo and Kendo. Those "sports" were derived from "martial arts" of Jujitsu and Kenjutsu. So if you want to do martial "arts" for quick and brutal self defense, then change the name of your art to Tae Kwon Sool, Sool being the korean pronunciation for the Japanese term Jitsu.

Jitsu or Sool is the term for "art" in martial art, so in a small sense, you are correct. But to say that Do = Art in martial art, that is incorrect.

 

[puunui]

The funny thing is that my daughter had been doing tkd for a couple of years when the last olympics was on. I was sitting and watching the tkd and she came in and watched it with me and after about 15 minutes she said "wow, this looks cool, whats the name of this sport?". She actually does tkd and yet it is unrecognisable to her. The same reason our GM severed all ties with the kukkiwon 10 years ago.

Frankly, this sounds more like a personal problem for your GM more than anything else, that his style of Taekwondo is so different than what was shown at the Olympics that he chose to isolate you and brainwash you into believing that the undoubtably obsolete incarnation that you are doing is somehow the "real" martial art of Taekwondo, and everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about, including but not limited to the Kukkiwon.

I really have a hard time understanding why people do such things.

And he probably severed all ties with the Kukkiwon because he got all the rank that he could out of them, and he didn't want to send the meager testing fee to promote sincere students such as yourself. it's quite a common practice, at least in the US, but I think the internet is changing things for the better.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If you don't do "sport tkd", then how can you make a comparison?




What about poomsae? Poomsae starts with your hands around your waist. Does that goes against every rule of self defense as well?




Is that what a martial art is to you, something that teaches you to defend yourself in a quick and brutal manner?




The "Do" suffix on martial arts comes from japanese martial arts; and the funny thing about that is that the original use of it was for sports, like Judo and Kendo. Those "sports" were derived from "martial arts" of Jujitsu and Kenjutsu. So if you want to do martial "arts" for quick and brutal self defense, then change the name of your art to Tae Kwon Sool, Sool being the korean pronunciation for the Japanese term Jitsu.

Jitsu or Sool is the term for "art" in martial art, so in a small sense, you are correct. But to say that Do = Art in martial art, that is incorrect.

You obviously cannot see the difference between sport and martial tkd and you are entitled to your opinion. I just read through the thread and I am glad to see that most others here can clearly see the diifference. For a moment there I had to check it wasnt april fools day because I couldnt believe anybody in their right mind could possibly not see the multitude of differences between the two.Actually post #28 pretty much sums it up. But as I say, you are more than welcome to your point of view.

 

[puunui]

No difference between the art and the sport? Tell me, where in the traditional art side of things has hurling yourself into your opponent into a clench position from 8 feet away with one leg raised in a defensive position ever been taught?

I don't know. But tell me, when was that ever taught in "sport"?

 

[puunui]

You obviously cannot see the difference between sport and martial tkd and you are entitled to your opinion.

No, what I cannot see is the logic or reasoning behind your opinion. That's why I asked you those questions. But if you do not wish to answer those, then that's ok, since you've obviously made your mind up and nothing will change it, even if you cannot articulate the reasons for holding the opinions that you do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

No, what I cannot see is the logic or reasoning behind your opinion. That's why I asked you those questions. But if you do not wish to answer those, then that's ok, since you've obviously made your mind up and nothing will change it, even if you cannot articulate the reasons for holding the opinions that you do.

No offence but I just wont waste my time. What I think or you think wont change anything and certainly wont affect my tkd training. We could have a 4 page back and forther but you wont see my opinion and I wont see yours. I have just read through all of your posts on the subject and its obvious we wont agree. I respect your opinion but certainly cant agree with it and in all honesty the less I say on this subject the better. Cheers.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Interesting perspective.... one I have not heard before... or much less given any thought about. Day one was hands up, but I can see the idea of hands down not to alert one of your intentions or defense. interesting point of view.

I made a similar observation of hands down in a thread some time back regarding punches being thrown from the hips instead of from a guard up position. After all, we do tend to walk about in our daily lives with our hands at our sides.

Hands down to hide intentions is not a factor in WTF sparring, however; no meaningful hand attacks are allowed and what are allowed can be directed only to the body anyway, so guarding the head from the fists at close range (the primary reason for a hands up guard) is not a factor. Also, the hands at the side guard the body from kicks to some extent, which is far more important under the WTF rule set.

So far as I know, taekwondo is the only martial art who's sport aspect emphasizes a hands down guard in competition. This is mainly because WTF taekwondo is one of the few martial sports with little to no hand usage. Were the tournament rules to allow hand strikes to the head, I'd guarantee that the guard would change.

Also, while the poomsae may start off in a hands down position (joon-bi), they don't stay down; they tend to stay mid to shoulder level during the execution of all of the kicking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMhY2Ioeof8&NR=1

Any meaningful attempts to relate the sport directly to self defense fall short because the sport is way too focused and doesn't account for many of the very obvious things that can happen in an actual fight (such as what to do when an opponent gets inside of your guard and starts punching your face or when he kicks your non kicking leg).

I don't see this as bad; its a sport after all, and no pretense is made to relate it to SD.

But to the eyes of many well informed people who know what they're looking at (as opposed to armchair fighters who never take a class but watch UFC fights and thus think themselves expert), it is a sport that has a marked difference from the rest of the art. Puunui does not see it that way, but he is probably the only person that I have conversed with who does not.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The "Do" suffix on martial arts comes from japanese martial arts; and the funny thing about that is that the original use of it was for sports, like Judo and Kendo. Those "sports" were derived from "martial arts" of Jujitsu and Kenjutsu. So if you want to do martial "arts" for quick and brutal self defense, then change the name of your art to Tae Kwon Sool, Sool being the korean pronunciation for the Japanese term Jitsu.

Jitsu or Sool is the term for "art" in martial art, so in a small sense, you are correct. But to say that Do = Art in martial art, that is incorrect.

This is not entirely accurate.

Do = way, and implies a philosophical/spiritual element. It was used to denote that the arts focus had shifted to self perfection and really had nothing to do with sport. This was done because Koryo arts had fallen out of favor with the new government in the late ninteenth century.

'Do' was added to 'karate' by Funakoshi in order to get his Karate into the Japanese school system, but there was no sportive element at that point. Kendo did not begin as a sport either, nor was it called kendo until the thirties. The shinai and bogu were developed well before kendo and before the nineteenth century as a means of allowing samurai to practice killing blows without crippling each other. Until the thirties, it was called gekkiken, not kendo.

Judo was called judo for a variety of reasons, but the do was also not directly related to sport. Sport and competition were, however viewed as means of self improvement, and so a sportive element did segue with the 'do' designation.

Plenty of 'do' arts have no sportive element whatsoever. Aikido is a do art due to Ueshiba's religious views. Hapkido, Aikido's Korean cousin, is a 'do' art that traditionally has no sportive element either.

Sports oriented martial arts are, with the exception of judo and kendo, more of a post war development.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

not to mention that its called FIST foot way and yet rarely, if ever, scores punches. We spend a great deal of each class working on punching and yet the sport version, by not scoring them, is obviously discouraging them.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?

Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less?

Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.

We are in the same situation. And that is exactly what our GM says. He stuck it out for as long as he could but as the focus shifted more and more toward the sport and they started telling him how to run his club he finally just cracked and ceased to be involved with them. I think it was about the time they brought in the taegeks and told him that he should stop teaching the palgwes that he realised he had 4000 students, a heap of very good instructors that he had personally trained since white belt that he realised he didnt need them telling him how to run his club. From memory, a very average student of the club who he constantly failed for 3rd dan went on a trip to korea and suddenly arrived back with a nice new stripe on his belt. I wasnt with the club back when this happened but by all reports our GM absolutely hit the roof when that happened.

 

[d1jinx]

Question - If I'm not KKW, what does that make me? I'm not part of the 'unified TKD' then, I don't follow their guildlines/standards, does that make me something less? .

NO.

Honestly, I don't need some mothership to tell me how to run my class. It's done quite nicely without for the last 15 years. Would I like to move up in dan rank? Yes. But not at the expense of being able to teach what I want, decide what is important to my school as far as rank advancement, to continue with our way of doing things.

The KKW doesn't tell you how to run your school. They don't tell you what to teach. What they do is set a "MINIMUM" guideline for rank within "THEIR" curriculum. No one has to participate. Those that choose to does the material the KKW requires such as the Taeguek poomse's. They "Standardize" what they Require. If you wish to be recognized by the KKW, you have to meet thier MINIMUM requirements. Too many people often confuse the minimums with "THE ONLY THING NEEDED". People need to understand that because KKW says the MINIMUM time required for 1st to 2nd, that it doesn't mean you are automatically to be promoted 1 year from the date you recieved 1st Dan.

As a KKW participant/follower/instructor/ whatever.... it is the one who is promoting you responsibility to ensure you have met whatever requirements that instructor has AND KKW minimums. It is not always the case and too any instructors promote GARBAGE rather than quality... hence the watered down Black Belts we see today.

If you are an Instructor who promotes through KKW... IT IS YOUR OBLIGATION TO KKW AND THE ART OF TAEKWONDO that the person you are promoting is ready and qualified to be a ____ DAN BB.


If you are not KKW, then you are whatever style of TKD you do. You are not any less a Whatever because you do not follow KKW.



Example... Bruce Lee was first a gung fu student. However his experiences led him to develope his own style of Martial Art. If you are a student of Bruce Lee, you are a student of HIS style. Do not claim GUNG FU because your instructor firts learned it and has peices of it within his style. You are still a Martial Artist, just not a certified Shoalin Gung fu Master.... see my point?

So if you do a style that may use Taeguek patterns, but do not follow KKW's curriculum or are certified as a KKW BB, dont claim to be a MASTER of Kukki-tkd. Nothing wrong with what you do or where the roots came from. I have known instructors who took bits and pieces of what they approved and taught in thier schools. My first instructors made us learn both Chun-gi and taeguek il jang then up thru BB. I dont claim to be ITF.

Nothing wrong with not belonging to "A" MOTHERSHIP of any kind. it doesn't stop you from being a taekwondo-er.

 

[d1jinx]

So if you do a style that may use Taeguek patterns, but do not follow KKW's curriculum or are certified as a KKW BB, dont claim to be a MASTER of Kukki-tkd. .

By this I mean, I have seen and know of schools who do a version of the taegueks. They have differences such as stances, where the Kiap is, and hell some even add extra and different moves. They do a modified Taeguek/Koryo/GuemGang/Taebeak/Pyongyong/Sipjin/JiTae... The instructors are not KKW certified nor do they certify or attempt to do it the KKW way...They SHOULD NOT CLAIM TO BE KKW.

Now someone who does those forms by the standards KKW sets, but adds their own curriculum to include different forms and versions of anything else they want, they still do the requirements set by KKW and certify their students through KKW.... is a KKW school and should claim it.

Everyone should go above and beyong to enbsure their students get the most out of thier training.

Make any sense?

 

[puunui]

Do = way, and implies a philosophical/spiritual element. It was used to denote that the arts focus had shifted to self perfection and really had nothing to do with sport. This was done because Koryo arts had fallen out of favor with the new government in the late ninteenth century.

I wrote all these posts about Do vs. Jutsu but I can't seem to find them.

'Do' was added to 'karate' by Funakoshi in order to get his Karate into the Japanese school system, but there was no sportive element at that point.

That's not what GM LEE Won Kuk said. He said Funakoshi Sensei (as opposed to "Funakoshi") wanted to model his art after Judo. that is why he adopted the uniform, the belt rank system. Kano Sensei was all about sport, because he was enamored with the Olympic movement and was even successful in getting the Olympic Games to Tokyo in 1940. It was during that 1938 when he died I believe.

And Do was added to Karate at the same time that the character of "empty" was added. Previously the art in Okinawa was known as Toudejutsu, pronounced karatejutsu in japanese. or tangsoo sool in korean. When the character for tang was changed to empty, the character for jutsu was changed to do.

Kendo did not begin as a sport either, nor was it called kendo until the thirties. The shinai and bogu were developed well before kendo and before the nineteenth century as a means of allowing samurai to practice killing blows without crippling each other. Until the thirties, it was called gekkiken, not kendo.

that is interesting but in his interview book, Nakayama Sensei speaks about how the karate students at the time wanted more competition orientedness in karate because of how they learned kendo and judo, with their competition focus.

Judo was called judo for a variety of reasons, but the do was also not directly related to sport. Sport and competition were, however viewed as means of self improvement, and so a sportive element did segue with the 'do' designation.

the point is that do arts were seen less for its combative element more so its self development and self discovery aspects. Of course you can use the techniques for self defense in do arts if you wanted to, but this is an entirely different thing than saying a do art such as judo, kendo or taekwondo is first and foremost a self defense oriented combat art where your goal is to destroy your enemy. If you want that, go for a jutsu art.

Plenty of 'do' arts have no sportive element whatsoever. Aikido is a do art due to Ueshiba's religious views. Hapkido, Aikido's Korean cousin, is a 'do' art that traditionally has no sportive element either.

From an old post I wrote back in 2001:

> I also think that other arts also changed from Jutsu to Do arts but
> did not adopt the original sport mentality that Kano Sensei advocated,
> and this muddied the picture so to speak. Aikido, for example, did
> not have a sporting aspect, at least not one advocated or approved
> of by the founder, Ueshiba Sensei, and yet it is a Do art. The
> similarity with Judo or Kendo though was that Aikido at that point
> was no longer to be considered a "combat" or battlefield martial art,
> like its predecessor, Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, but rather was a vehicle
> for self discovery and self enlightenment. However, Ueshiba Sensei
> chose to do this through a quasi religious or religious vehicle, rather
> than through sport, due to his involvement and participation in the Omoto
> religion.
>
> And in doing so, Ueshiba Sensei broadened and changed the
> definition of Do martial arts, to include non-sport oriented practices.
> Prior to Aikido, Do martial arts were sport martial arts, Judo, Kendo
> and Karate Do included. In a sense, he was riding the wave of the
> popularity of Do arts or the era, but at the same time, changed the
> rules a little, like all visionaries tend to do.

Hapkido, at least according to GM JI Han Jae, is not an art in which you ever hurt your opponent. We never break joints for example, or cause someone to be permanently injured. the reason GM Ji gives is that we do not want someone out there who 40 years down the road is dealing with an arthritic joint and remembering that we were the cause of that. So in that regard, Hapkido also has a philosophical basis that removes it from the combat or warfare oriented jutsu arts, which are really meant to kill your opponent.

Sports oriented martial arts are, with the exception of judo and kendo, more of a post war development.

well, so is taekwondo.

Over and above all of this is a point that some people tend to forget, and that is that Japan and Korea are relatively safe countries such that the need for self defense skills is almost non-existent. I remember going to Japan for the first time seeing five year old children riding the bullet train by themselves, without fear that someone would kidnap them or do them harm. This was a while ago, and maybe things have changed. Also in Korea, I never ever feel like there would ever be a situation where I would have to defend myself.