Sport Fighter

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Martial D

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Actually, the technique doesn't work at half speed is my point.

Wait, so your armlock can be used safely in sparring, but is too deadly for a fight because it would certainly break the arm.

Can you show me a video of this being performed on a non compliant person?
 

skribs

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Wait, so your armlock can be used safely in sparring, but is too deadly for a fight because it would certainly break the arm.

Can you show me a video of this being performed on a non compliant person?

See Gerry's response. He said it way better than I could have. I'm not going to try and reword what he said, because whatever I try and say will be worse.
 

Martial D

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In many cases, they are simply extensions of techniques that are tested in sport. We know the workings of arm bars, because there are several variations that get used regularly in sport. We can use those to figure out what makes them work, including what makes them work slow. We even have evidence from sport of what happens if you go too fast, or the person tries to escape hard at the wrong moment. Submissions are typically (I can't think of an exception, but I feel like there are some) completed at a low speed, to give time to tap out.

The issue with some techniques is that they actually don't work slow, if the other person resists. Standing arm bars are a good example of this - they lack a base to prevent escape. That makes them more likely to be escaped at any speed (so you need a "what's next", as you have for many techniques), but really useless as a submission, so not useful for sport.
Yes. And there are also lots of 'versions' of working techniques that are absolutely wrong and don't work at all. There's only one way to set them apart.
 

Martial D

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See Gerry's response. He said it way better than I could have. I'm not going to try and reword what he said, because whatever I try and say will be worse.
His post did not answer my question.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So you would use the term "sport fighter" as an insult.
CMA has 2 set of skills. Skill that can be used between

1. friendly training partner.
2. unfriendly challenger.

If you only train part 1 without training part 2, you are a "sport fighter" by definition. Many people may be satisfied to train just part 1. I'm not.
 

DocWard

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Context matters.

First off, a definition. I define sport fighting as fight training which is for the purpose of competition (even if you don't compete). This can include boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Taekwondo, Kyokushin, or any number of arts. If the school primarily teaches sport fighting (even if you don't sport fight) then I am including that in the definition.

Others on this forum also lump this into sport fighting, which I would just call a game or drill: any time you give two players an objective with a win/lose condition. If you both start kneeling and one person is supposed to bring the fight to the ground, and the other is supposed to stand up, then I would call that a game or a drill, not a sport.

  • "Sport fighters get a lot of practice sparring and generally train against resistance, which gives them more confidence their abilities will work." - Good assessment of the pros of sport fighting.
  • "Sport fighters need to be mindful that in the real world, the rules are different, and they need to be aware of how to use their techniques in a real self-defense situation." - Good assessment of the cons of sport fighting.
  • "Sport fighting is the only way to learn how to fight, because without competition, your techniques can't be sharpened" - This would be said by a chest-thumping sport fighter.
  • "Sport fighting sucks because you're learning an art based on rules, and on the street there are no rules. Fight for life, not for points." - This would be said by a chest-thumping non-sport-fighter.
If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as a martial artist who does so for sport, that's not an insult. If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as an idiot who fights for sport, then it's an insult.

I believe this summarizes my opinion on the matter at least as well as I could.

If someone referred to me as a "sport fighter," I wouldn't be offended if they didn't mean it in a derogatory manner. If it were meant in a derogatory manner, I wouldn't be offended so much as annoyed that someone was stooping to personal attacks, and I wouldn't bother interacting further.

I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

No, as I define (generally) a soldier (or sailor, airman or marine) as a person, whether a volunteer or conscript, who has taken an oath to fight for his or her country, and to die in said country's defense if necessary.

While paintball and AirSoft can replicate the strategic and tactical aspects of warfare in a non-deadly environment, the sports are pursued as hobbies, where everyone anticipates going home after a day or weekend of adrenaline filled fun.

Hey, those paintballs can STING!

Darn skippy they do!

To my mind, paintball is like sparring. With the right rules, and against people who know what they're doing, it is a decent way to safely practice with resistance.

I can say that playing paintball made me a better field soldier, as it allowed me to practice those common tactical tasks important to moving in a contested environment.

As for the part about going "against people who know what they're doing," I'm reminded of one of "Murphy's Laws of Combat:" Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs who are dangerous!" I played for years on a MilSim paintball team, and all but a couple members of our team were combat arms veterans. It was often most challenging running into another squad that had no clue what they were doing.
 
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Martial D

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Ok. If I punch you at half speed or full speed, which is more likely to connect with your face?
That tells me you forgot the question.

So I'll rephrase it.

Well them

If it works in sparring, why doesn't it work in a fight? Why would the street guy get a broken arm, but the sparring guy wouldn't?

Second, I asked for a video of this technique working on someone that isn't playing along, to make sure we are actually talking about something here, and not one of the many existent 'untestable'(bullsh#t) techniques that exist all throughout tma. Like I said, I don't care about what ifs.
 

skribs

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That tells me you forgot the question.

So I'll rephrase it.

Well them

If it works in sparring, why doesn't it work in a fight? Why would the street guy get a broken arm, but the sparring guy wouldn't?

Second, I asked for a video of this technique working on someone that isn't playing along, to make sure we are actually talking about something here, and not one of the many existent 'untestable'(bullsh#t) techniques that exist all throughout tma. Like I said, I don't care about what ifs.

What specific technique I'm talking about is irrelevant, is part of why I didn't post a video. There are other reasons, but that's the biggest. We're talking about the concept of what speed things work at.

The reason I bring up the punch, is because a punch at half speed is significantly easier to avoid. The same is true of many grappling concepts. If I go for a double leg by crouching down and duck-walking towards you, it won't work. At half speed, it doesn't work against resistance.

The other reason I bring up the punch, is because most sparring is done with the effort to not injure your partner. Taking boxing for self defense would be pointless if you're getting concussions in class every other week. In light sparring, typically a tag to the head to say "gotcha!" is enough. Where in a match or a real fight, you throw as hard as you can to try and knock the other person out. Unfortunately, this can also lead to concussions, which is why I've heard some people quit MMA to focus specifically on grappling competitions.

But back to grappling. In light sparring or light rolling, if I can get into a position where the submission is available, my partner will usually tap. When I was a white belt, I went hard on every technique, and what ended up happening is I could barely use my hands the next day because my wrists were so sore from all the wristlock submissions we do. I learned when to go hard, and when to let my partner drill without sacrificing my body for it. If my partner does something that would result in my arm being broken had he continued, I will acknowledge his victory.

In a match, that's not the case. If my winning or losing a tournament is dependent on my tapping, I'm going to do everything in my power to not tap. If someone has me in a position where I am at the edge of my flexibility, but I have options to brace or roll out of the technique, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to just give you the submission (and don't stop reading here), because I am going to try to roll or brace.

However, the only reason I can roll or brace, is because you stopped to give me a chance to tap. If you wouldn't have given me a chance to figure it out, then my arm would be broken.

Let's go back to the punch. Because for some reason concussions are okay. If we're doing light sparring, I'm going to tap you on the head, because I don't want you to suffer permanent brain damage. If I were to punch that way in a boxing match or MMA fight, it wouldn't work. Because you would just ignore the tap on the head and keep going.

The same applies to grappling. In sparring, I can make it work, because people recognize what I could have done if I didn't hold back. In a match, it won't work, because people won't tap until absolutely necessary, and I'm not going to go full speed on the break because I'm not a sociopath. But in a real situation when I want to disable my attacker, I'm going to use it full force.
 

drop bear

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I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

LARPers?
 

drop bear

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What specific technique I'm talking about is irrelevant, is part of why I didn't post a video. There are other reasons, but that's the biggest. We're talking about the concept of what speed things work at.

The reason I bring up the punch, is because a punch at half speed is significantly easier to avoid. The same is true of many grappling concepts. If I go for a double leg by crouching down and duck-walking towards you, it won't work. At half speed, it doesn't work against resistance.

The other reason I bring up the punch, is because most sparring is done with the effort to not injure your partner. Taking boxing for self defense would be pointless if you're getting concussions in class every other week. In light sparring, typically a tag to the head to say "gotcha!" is enough. Where in a match or a real fight, you throw as hard as you can to try and knock the other person out. Unfortunately, this can also lead to concussions, which is why I've heard some people quit MMA to focus specifically on grappling competitions.

But back to grappling. In light sparring or light rolling, if I can get into a position where the submission is available, my partner will usually tap. When I was a white belt, I went hard on every technique, and what ended up happening is I could barely use my hands the next day because my wrists were so sore from all the wristlock submissions we do. I learned when to go hard, and when to let my partner drill without sacrificing my body for it. If my partner does something that would result in my arm being broken had he continued, I will acknowledge his victory.

In a match, that's not the case. If my winning or losing a tournament is dependent on my tapping, I'm going to do everything in my power to not tap. If someone has me in a position where I am at the edge of my flexibility, but I have options to brace or roll out of the technique, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to just give you the submission (and don't stop reading here), because I am going to try to roll or brace.

However, the only reason I can roll or brace, is because you stopped to give me a chance to tap. If you wouldn't have given me a chance to figure it out, then my arm would be broken.

Let's go back to the punch. Because for some reason concussions are okay. If we're doing light sparring, I'm going to tap you on the head, because I don't want you to suffer permanent brain damage. If I were to punch that way in a boxing match or MMA fight, it wouldn't work. Because you would just ignore the tap on the head and keep going.

The same applies to grappling. In sparring, I can make it work, because people recognize what I could have done if I didn't hold back. In a match, it won't work, because people won't tap until absolutely necessary, and I'm not going to go full speed on the break because I'm not a sociopath. But in a real situation when I want to disable my attacker, I'm going to use it full force.

I don't know I always really made sure I had the guy. Then arm locked them.

That way I could fight them on in sparring without having to take the arm off. Which gave me a real time experience using them.

A lot of wrestling underhooks, two on one and head control made what I thought was unworkable to at least a bit workable.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I can say that playing paintball made me a better field soldier, as it allowed me to practice those common tactical tasks important to moving in a contested environment.

As for the part about going "against people who know what they're doing," I'm reminded of one of "Murphy's Laws of Combat:" Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs who are dangerous!" I played for years on a MilSim paintball team, and all but a couple members of our team were combat arms veterans. It was often most challenging running into another squad that had no clue what they were doing.
I have a theory about that. Paintball has no real penalty. If you get hit, it maybe stings a bit and folks laugh at you maybe. Not like the dangers real tactics are meant to deal with. So there are things that work (perhaps unreliably, perhaps reliably) in paintball that would cause problems in actual combat, and vice versa.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That tells me you forgot the question.

So I'll rephrase it.

Well them

If it works in sparring, why doesn't it work in a fight? Why would the street guy get a broken arm, but the sparring guy wouldn't?

Second, I asked for a video of this technique working on someone that isn't playing along, to make sure we are actually talking about something here, and not one of the many existent 'untestable'(bullsh#t) techniques that exist all throughout tma. Like I said, I don't care about what ifs.
The point we've both made is that it doesn't really work in sparring as a destruction (because you can't reasonably destroy in sparring) or a submission (because it doesn't reliably restrain for holding in place). It can be done slowly only if the person is compliant (much like a punch, which I think was the point of Skribs' question).

In a fight, the destruction is available. There's still the danger of escape because of the lack of base, but that's only an issue if you don't control around it - attempting it should put you in a better position, even if you can't complete it.
 

DocWard

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Not so much, at least in my experience, because I've never seen anyone take on a different role or persona. Likewise, the outcome is unknown and unpredictable. I would think historical reenacts are closer to actual LARPers.
 

Martial D

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The point we've both made is that it doesn't really work in sparring as a destruction (because you can't reasonably destroy in sparring) or a submission (because it doesn't reliably restrain for holding in place). It can be done slowly only if the person is compliant (much like a punch, which I think was the point of Skribs' question).

In a fight, the destruction is available. There's still the danger of escape because of the lack of base, but that's only an issue if you don't control around it - attempting it should put you in a better position, even if you can't complete it.
More should/would/could supported only by words and wishes.

If that's enough for you, have at it.

And yes, I understand there are conditions to make techniques work, and one of those might be speed of execution. That's just not relevant to the very specific claims @skribs made that I was addressing before he shifted his goalposts to a generality.
 

Martial D

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What specific technique I'm talking about is irrelevant, is part of why I didn't post a video. There are other reasons, but that's the biggest. We're talking about the concept of what speed things work at.

The reason I bring up the punch, is because a punch at half speed is significantly easier to avoid. The same is true of many grappling concepts. If I go for a double leg by crouching down and duck-walking towards you, it won't work. At half speed, it doesn't work against resistance.

The other reason I bring up the punch, is because most sparring is done with the effort to not injure your partner. Taking boxing for self defense would be pointless if you're getting concussions in class every other week. In light sparring, typically a tag to the head to say "gotcha!" is enough. Where in a match or a real fight, you throw as hard as you can to try and knock the other person out. Unfortunately, this can also lead to concussions, which is why I've heard some people quit MMA to focus specifically on grappling competitions.

But back to grappling. In light sparring or light rolling, if I can get into a position where the submission is available, my partner will usually tap. When I was a white belt, I went hard on every technique, and what ended up happening is I could barely use my hands the next day because my wrists were so sore from all the wristlock submissions we do. I learned when to go hard, and when to let my partner drill without sacrificing my body for it. If my partner does something that would result in my arm being broken had he continued, I will acknowledge his victory.

In a match, that's not the case. If my winning or losing a tournament is dependent on my tapping, I'm going to do everything in my power to not tap. If someone has me in a position where I am at the edge of my flexibility, but I have options to brace or roll out of the technique, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to just give you the submission (and don't stop reading here), because I am going to try to roll or brace.

However, the only reason I can roll or brace, is because you stopped to give me a chance to tap. If you wouldn't have given me a chance to figure it out, then my arm would be broken.

Let's go back to the punch. Because for some reason concussions are okay. If we're doing light sparring, I'm going to tap you on the head, because I don't want you to suffer permanent brain damage. If I were to punch that way in a boxing match or MMA fight, it wouldn't work. Because you would just ignore the tap on the head and keep going.

The same applies to grappling. In sparring, I can make it work, because people recognize what I could have done if I didn't hold back. In a match, it won't work, because people won't tap until absolutely necessary, and I'm not going to go full speed on the break because I'm not a sociopath. But in a real situation when I want to disable my attacker, I'm going to use it full force.
You have some strange ideas about how an actual grappling match happens, or how a fight happens.

You should take a break from dance class and try them out for context.
 

dvcochran

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I get you, but wouldn't the concept of sparring and not sparring, be included with that statement and if not, what is the distinction?
In that absolute context, a MA that doesn't spar or test a persons technique with some kind of resistance should not be call Martial. IMHO
 

dvcochran

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Just to be clear, in this analogy the sport fighters are the paintball warriors? They aren't real world fighters because their sport doesn't encompass the street reality of groin kicks, eye gouges, ambushes, multiple attackers, knives, rolling on broken glass, etc, etc?

If that's the case, then let me turn it around a bit. There are martial artists out there who purportedly train for the street, eye gouges, punches to the throat, knives, multiple attackers, the whole bit.

However ...
They don't actually gouge anyone's eyes in training. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually punch anyone in the throat. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually have partners sucker punch them when they're distracted.

They don't actually stab anyone or have anyone actually try to stab them with a real knife. They may drill with a training knife, but even then they usually don't have the partner with a knife actually try to defeat them in a skilled and determined manner.

They don't actually try defending against multiple attackers who are honestly trying to dogpile them and stomp them in the head. They may play act at fighting multiple opponents, but the attackers either take turns like movie bad guys coming in with single telegraphed attacks or else they lumber in slowly and take a dive like fragile zombies. (Pro-tip - If you have a 3 on 1 fight, the 1 is going to get stomped unless he has a huge advantage in skill and physical attributes.)

... and so on.

But wait, there's more.

Unless they train like "sport fighters", then they likely have not:

Hit another person as hard as they can and continued to hit them.

Knocked someone out.

Taken a full power shot to the head and continued to fight.

Practiced hitting someone who is trying to avoid being hit and is also hitting back.

Choked someone unconscious.

Thrown someone who is doing their best to fight back and avoid being thrown.

Escaped a bad position that a skilled person is trying their best to hold them in.

... and so on.

If "sport fighters" are just playing a game and are not real fighters, then these "street reality oriented" martial artists are even less so. If sport fighters are akin to paintball warriors, that would make "street reality oriented" martial artists more akin to Civil War re-enactors who play act a battle to a pre-ordained conclusion.*

Of course there are martial artists who have done all the "street" things in real life fights, but I don't know that "sport fighters" are any more or less likely to have been in that situation.

If you're arguing that only people who regularly engage in real world street fights are actually "fighters" and other martial artists can only be labelled as "sport fighters" or "dojo fighters", that's reasonable. It seems like the argument is usually something different.

*(I actually do recognize value in martial arts which have no combat sport component. I even appreciate the potential lessons to be learned in arts which don't have any sparring. I'm just taking your original argument to its logical conclusion.)

Damn, that was very well said!
 
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