Sport Fighter

[Deleted member 34973]

Curious, is the term sport fighter, an insulting term to a Martial artist.

I am asking, as it seems some members get insulted when I use this term and unfortunately, the conversations seem to degrade into insults.

So, I thought it would be good to see what people here think.

I can be a little abrupt sometimes without realizing it. Although I see that being abrupt is pretty common on martialtalk, but I am understanding that people have personal definitions for words and phrases.

I thought that maybe the phrase Sport Fighter, can be a little insulting to some.

My definition is - someone that trains exclusively in sport tactics, for sport competition.

 

[jobo]

Curious, is the term sport fighter, an insulting term to a Martial artist.

I am asking, as it seems some members get insulted when I use this term and unfortunately, the conversations seem to degrade into insults.

So, I thought it would be good to see what people here think.

I can be a little abrupt sometimes without realizing it. Although I see that being abrupt is pretty common on martialtalk, but I am understanding that people have personal definitions for words and phrases.

I thought that maybe the phrase Sport Fighter, can be a little insulting to some.

My definition is - someone that trains exclusively in sport tactics, for sport competition.

8n its not insulting it just means nothing at, what sport at what level, if your saying someone is a state level contender, then that's a extremely high level of fitness and ability,

 

[skribs]

Context matters.

First off, a definition. I define sport fighting as fight training which is for the purpose of competition (even if you don't compete). This can include boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Taekwondo, Kyokushin, or any number of arts. If the school primarily teaches sport fighting (even if you don't sport fight) then I am including that in the definition.

Others on this forum also lump this into sport fighting, which I would just call a game or drill: any time you give two players an objective with a win/lose condition. If you both start kneeling and one person is supposed to bring the fight to the ground, and the other is supposed to stand up, then I would call that a game or a drill, not a sport.

• "Sport fighters get a lot of practice sparring and generally train against resistance, which gives them more confidence their abilities will work." - Good assessment of the pros of sport fighting.
• "Sport fighters need to be mindful that in the real world, the rules are different, and they need to be aware of how to use their techniques in a real self-defense situation." - Good assessment of the cons of sport fighting.
• "Sport fighting is the only way to learn how to fight, because without competition, your techniques can't be sharpened" - This would be said by a chest-thumping sport fighter.
• "Sport fighting sucks because you're learning an art based on rules, and on the street there are no rules. Fight for life, not for points." - This would be said by a chest-thumping non-sport-fighter.

If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as a martial artist who does so for sport, that's not an insult. If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as an idiot who fights for sport, then it's an insult.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Context matters.

First off, a definition. I define sport fighting as fight training which is for the purpose of competition (even if you don't compete). This can include boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Taekwondo, Kyokushin, or any number of arts. If the school primarily teaches sport fighting (even if you don't sport fight) then I am including that in the definition.

Others on this forum also lump this into sport fighting, which I would just call a game or drill: any time you give two players an objective with a win/lose condition. If you both start kneeling and one person is supposed to bring the fight to the ground, and the other is supposed to stand up, then I would call that a game or a drill, not a sport.

• "Sport fighters get a lot of practice sparring and generally train against resistance, which gives them more confidence their abilities will work." - Good assessment of the pros of sport fighting.
• "Sport fighters need to be mindful that in the real world, the rules are different, and they need to be aware of how to use their techniques in a real self-defense situation." - Good assessment of the cons of sport fighting.
• "Sport fighting is the only way to learn how to fight, because without competition, your techniques can't be sharpened" - This would be said by a chest-thumping sport fighter.
• "Sport fighting sucks because you're learning an art based on rules, and on the street there are no rules. Fight for life, not for points." - This would be said by a chest-thumping non-sport-fighter.

If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as a martial artist who does so for sport, that's not an insult. If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as an idiot who fights for sport, then it's an insult.

Great answer. I would say that I tend to think what a sport fighter is, would be, in your definition.

If you call someone a sport fighter, because you categorize them as a martial artist who does so for sport,

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't think there's anything inherently insulting about the term.

Where you might encounter some pushback is when "sport fighter" is used to imply that a boxer/nak mui/savateur/wrestler/jiujiteiro/mma fighter/etc is less skilled, capable, or knowledgeable regarding "real fighting" in "the streets" than a representative of an art which professes to be "too dangerous for competition" or suchlike.

Offhand, that seems to be the context in which I most often encounter the term. It's not a phrase I commonly see from practitioners of combat sports.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I don't think there's anything inherently insulting about the term.

Where you might encounter some pushback is when "sport fighter" is used to imply that a boxer/nak mui/savateur/wrestler/jiujiteiro/mma fighter/etc is less skilled, capable, or knowledgeable regarding "real fighting" in "the streets" than a representative of an art which professes to be "too dangerous for competition" or suchlike.

Offhand, that seems to be the context in which I most often encounter the term. It's not a phrase I commonly see from practitioners of combat sports.

I would agree with that assessment. Unless the experience, (techniques to dangerous for sport) is in the streets itself. There is not to much a person can say about it.

On th flip side, that would be the same for a non sport competitor, claiming expert advice concerning a specific competition.

I am speaking in terms of the fact they have not trained in the competition arena.

 

[Mitlov]

If someone refers to a sport fighter as one particular subset of martial artist, the term is not going to offend me.

If someone refers to a sport fighter in the context of "not a real martial artist," I'm going to take offense or get annoyed.

It's like how it's not remotely offensive to use "girl" as an antonym of "boy," but it's very offensive to use "girl" as an antonym of "tough person." It's not the word itself that's offensive, but how it's used within a particular post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Curious, is the term sport fighter, an insulting term to a Martial artist.

I am asking, as it seems some members get insulted when I use this term and unfortunately, the conversations seem to degrade into insults.

So, I thought it would be good to see what people here think.

I can be a little abrupt sometimes without realizing it. Although I see that being abrupt is pretty common on martialtalk, but I am understanding that people have personal definitions for words and phrases.

I thought that maybe the phrase Sport Fighter, can be a little insulting to some.

My definition is - someone that trains exclusively in sport tactics, for sport competition.

I don't think most folks would be insulted by it, unless they perceive it's being used in an insulting manner ("You're nothin' but a sport fighter.").

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Why do you find this annoying?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why do you find this annoying?

Guthrie, if you quote the message, the right person will know you're talking to them.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Guthrie, if you quote the message, the right person will know you're talking to them.

Yeah, I am still working that out, I thought I did and tried twice. My bad but I will figure it out.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Not as big as being strong is to some.

Its not something i expect anyone to be insulted by TBH. Unless you get into the moral deminer of prize fighting and basically punching each other for money but thats another thing entirely.

 

[Mitlov]

I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

Not a good analogy. I wouldn't call paintballers "real soldiers" or "combat veterans", but I wouldn't call non-competitive historical-recreation hobbyists "real soldiers" or "combat veterans" either.

What's annoying is when the historical-recreation hobbyist turns to the paintball hobbyist and says, "your hobby isn't real life-and-death combat," like somehow theirs is closer to it.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Not a good analogy. I wouldn't call paintballers "real soldiers" or "combat veterans", but I wouldn't call non-competitive historical-recreation hobbyists "real soldiers" or "combat veterans" either.

What's annoying is when the historical-recreation hobbyist turns to the paintball hobbyist and says, "your hobby isn't real life-and-death combat," like somehow theirs is closer to it.

I get you, but wouldn't the concept of sparring and not sparring, be included with that statement and if not, what is the distinction?

 

[jobo]

I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

depends who the real soldiers are , at that sort of level of interest, there better trained that most of the real soldiers from many countries in tthehe world

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, a "sport fighter" is a guy who doesn't worry about

- take down in the striking game (for example, use very narrow stance).
- striking in the wrestling game (for example, extend head in front of hands).

The sport rule set can help someone to develop bad habit.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I guess I am a little confused by that view.

An example- there are people that recreate wars, in paintball. They have grenades, tanks, landmines and sometimes 100's of participants. There are local, state and even International competitions.

In doing this sport-would you call them real soldiers?

Just to be clear, in this analogy the sport fighters are the paintball warriors? They aren't real world fighters because their sport doesn't encompass the street reality of groin kicks, eye gouges, ambushes, multiple attackers, knives, rolling on broken glass, etc, etc?

If that's the case, then let me turn it around a bit. There are martial artists out there who purportedly train for the street, eye gouges, punches to the throat, knives, multiple attackers, the whole bit.

However ...
They don't actually gouge anyone's eyes in training. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually punch anyone in the throat. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually have partners sucker punch them when they're distracted.

They don't actually stab anyone or have anyone actually try to stab them with a real knife. They may drill with a training knife, but even then they usually don't have the partner with a knife actually try to defeat them in a skilled and determined manner.

They don't actually try defending against multiple attackers who are honestly trying to dogpile them and stomp them in the head. They may play act at fighting multiple opponents, but the attackers either take turns like movie bad guys coming in with single telegraphed attacks or else they lumber in slowly and take a dive like fragile zombies. (Pro-tip - If you have a 3 on 1 fight, the 1 is going to get stomped unless he has a huge advantage in skill and physical attributes.)

... and so on.

But wait, there's more.

Unless they train like "sport fighters", then they likely have not:

Hit another person as hard as they can and continued to hit them.

Knocked someone out.

Taken a full power shot to the head and continued to fight.

Practiced hitting someone who is trying to avoid being hit and is also hitting back.

Choked someone unconscious.

Thrown someone who is doing their best to fight back and avoid being thrown.

Escaped a bad position that a skilled person is trying their best to hold them in.

... and so on.

If "sport fighters" are just playing a game and are not real fighters, then these "street reality oriented" martial artists are even less so. If sport fighters are akin to paintball warriors, that would make "street reality oriented" martial artists more akin to Civil War re-enactors who play act a battle to a pre-ordained conclusion.*

Of course there are martial artists who have done all the "street" things in real life fights, but I don't know that "sport fighters" are any more or less likely to have been in that situation.

If you're arguing that only people who regularly engage in real world street fights are actually "fighters" and other martial artists can only be labelled as "sport fighters" or "dojo fighters", that's reasonable. It seems like the argument is usually something different.

*(I actually do recognize value in martial arts which have no combat sport component. I even appreciate the potential lessons to be learned in arts which don't have any sparring. I'm just taking your original argument to its logical conclusion.)

 

[Mitlov]

The biggest irony of the whole paintball analogy is that the US Army uses paintball in training for real combat.

The twist for this particular battle assembly was the usage of paintball guns on a recreation course at Charleston Air Force Base.
"We wanted to give them the most realistic experience that we could," said Smothers, "to refresh some of those things they haven't done in a long time." Most of the drill sergeants have been doing red and white phase training during their ATs.
Each task during the four days of training built upon each other and culminated in the paintball exercise. Soldiers separated into two teams and moved from one end of the course to the other, employing the proper movement methods and hand and arms signals, all while trying to shoot the "enemy" and not get shot in the process. Using paintballs brought a new level of reality to the activity.

Paintball enhances realism in Army Reserve unit's training

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Just to be clear, in this analogy the sport fighters are the paintball warriors? They aren't real world fighters because their sport doesn't encompass the street reality of groin kicks, eye gouges, ambushes, multiple attackers, knives, rolling on broken glass, etc, etc?

If that's the case, then let me turn it around a bit. There are martial artists out there who purportedly train for the street, eye gouges, punches to the throat, knives, multiple attackers, the whole bit.

However ...
They don't actually gouge anyone's eyes in training. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually punch anyone in the throat. They may simulate doing so without contact or resistance.

They don't actually have partners sucker punch them when they're distracted.

They don't actually stab anyone or have anyone actually try to stab them with a real knife. They may drill with a training knife, but even then they usually don't have the partner with a knife actually try to defeat them in a skilled and determined manner.

They don't actually try defending against multiple attackers who are honestly trying to dogpile them and stomp them in the head. They may play act at fighting multiple opponents, but the attackers either take turns like movie bad guys coming in with single telegraphed attacks or else they lumber in slowly and take a dive like fragile zombies. (Pro-tip - If you have a 3 on 1 fight, the 1 is going to get stomped unless he has a huge advantage in skill and physical attributes.)

... and so on.

But wait, there's more.

Unless they train like "sport fighters", then they likely have not:

Hit another person as hard as they can and continued to hit them.

Knocked someone out.

Taken a full power shot to the head and continued to fight.

Practiced hitting someone who is trying to avoid being hit and is also hitting back.

Choked someone unconscious.

Thrown someone who is doing their best to fight back and avoid being thrown.

Escaped a bad position that a skilled person is trying their best to hold them in.

... and so on.

If "sport fighters" are just playing a game and are not real fighters, then these "street reality oriented" martial artists are even less so. If sport fighters are akin to paintball warriors, that would make "street reality oriented" martial artists more akin to Civil War re-enactors who play act a battle to a pre-ordained conclusion.*

Of course there are martial artists who have done all the "street" things in real life fights, but I don't know that "sport fighters" are any more or less likely to have been in that situation.

If you're arguing that only people who regularly engage in real world street fights are actually "fighters" and other martial artists can only be labelled as "sport fighters" or "dojo fighters", that's reasonable. It seems like the argument is usually something different.

*(I actually do recognize value in martial arts which have no combat sport component. I even appreciate the potential lessons to be learned in arts which don't have any sparring. I'm just taking your original argument to its logical conclusion.)

Actually, I am just looking for the distinction, in why it's different in the martial Arts, compared to other sports.

As, for the paintball, these large games can get pretty brutal and people do get injured.

I used that example, simply because some take it as a serious sport, as do those in the Martial Arts sport!

No real logical conclusion, I am trying to understand the difference in the view, of why martial sport, ups other combat sports (such as paintball) when it comes to claiming the title of "Real".
(Not that there is actually a title)

But, your description of fighters, I do find reasonable as well and no there is not meant to be something different. Just trying to understand the various reasons.

I as well, do find value in some aspects, of the varying sport combat arts.

But, I do think that you (in general) do not truly know, until you actually do. And, that applies to everything you choose to take up..just my opinion though.

The explanation was great by the way.

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