Sport And TMA....Again

[MJS]

Didn't want to further sidetrack the "Is BJJ good for SD" thread, so I figured I'd start a new one. In that thread, Steve and I were talking about sport and TMAs, and the misconceptions that some people may have, as to the effectiveness of sport fighting arts.

This is a comment that I made:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...JJ-work-in-a-real-fight?p=1610425#post1610425

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

 

[K-man]

Didn't want to further sidetrack the "Is BJJ good for SD" thread, so I figured I'd start a new one. In that thread, Steve and I were talking about sport and TMAs, and the misconceptions that some people may have, as to the effectiveness of sport fighting arts.

This is a comment that I made:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...JJ-work-in-a-real-fight?p=1610425#post1610425

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

I wish you would hijack the other thread. We all agreed on page one that you could use BJJ for SD!

Within in martial arts, I believe there are at least two groups. There are those who are young and fit and look at MAs as a means of testing their skills against others or maybe even representing their country. These ideals are more than enough to validate the sporting nature of martial arts. Anyone who has developed their skill to that level, or indeed the level to compete in a local tournament will have developed skills to help them in an altercation with an untrained or street wise attacker. Is the average martial artist going to match it with a highly trained professional MMA fighter? Most likely not.

Of course we now have the problem we have had in other threads as to the definition of TMA. Can we take it that TMA refers to those arts that have existed for generations, were developed to protect life and property and are not used in competition?

So the next group are those who have no interest in completion. They might be older, they might be people with an interest in MA, they might be people looking for the ability to defend themselves or their families if the need were to arise. They do not feel the need to test themselves in competition.

Now you specifically mentioned Kenpo as your example. You said they train techniques against just about every attack. In some ways I can see the logic but I think that it is only at the basic level that those techniques are applicable. We can train to receive a variety of punches to a variety of targets. By the time you have worked all those out you might have 50 ways of defending. Then you get attacked on the street. Are you going to use any of those things? Highly unlikely. You are going to experience adrenal dump and you will react with flinch response. Most reality based systems are based on flinch response and that is also how I train my students. So as you asked is it fallacy? The answer as always is not clear cut. You learn basic techniques, then you forget them. In a fight you are relying on the principles you have learned to produce the appropriate response and this applies across the board, sport or TMA. In the end you are relying on pure fighting skill. The difference is how you arrive at that point.

The difference to me between sport and TMA is context. Sport is to play and the side benefit is self defence skills. TMA is to protect your life by whatever means necessary.

Much has been said of kata, most not complimentary. My teaching revolves around kata. I use it to teach basics, I use it to teach techniques, I use it to teach applications and I use it to teach combinations. But most importantly, I teach it as RBSD. Most sport oriented MAs do not pay much attention to kata at all. That's why I get so annoyed when people who don't understand kata start bagging it.

So we get to your final question, "Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill?" Basically you train the techniques, then rely on the fighting skill that you have developed.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I think another misconception is that TMAs don't compete? Do you believe fighting for fun is new? Of course not. As long as there have been men they have had competitions so long before MMA and UFC. Guys would train and fight for "sport". It wasn't govt sanction or for belts and rankings but people have been competing for 1000s of years in fighting arts.

 

[Hanzou]

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

I would say the public at large thinks that boxers, wrestlers, and MMA fighters can beat the crap out of someone, and handle themselves well in a self-defense situation. I've heard plenty of folks say that Karate or Kung Fu doesn't work in the street, but I have yet to hear anyone say the same about MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. So the question then becomes; Who thinks that martial athletes can't defend themselves?

Sports athletes tend to be more fit, have healthier diets, fight more often, and train more often than their non sport counterparts. In any SD situation, those factors are very important.

 

[K-man]

I would say the public at large thinks that boxers, wrestlers, and MMA fighters can beat the crap out of someone, and handle themselves well in a self-defense situation. I've heard plenty of folks say that Karate or Kung Fu doesn't work in the street, but I have yet to hear anyone say the same about MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. So the question then becomes; Who thinks that martial athletes can't defend themselves?

Sports athletes tend to be more fit, have healthier diets, fight more often, and train more often than their non sport counterparts. In any SD situation, those factors are very important.

Why don't you keep those opinions to the posts that you have steered that way and leave this one to discussing the issues that MJS has raised.

No one is suggesting here or elsewhere that martial athletes can't defend themselves, that is NOT the question at all.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I mentioned that one of the things that may make the sporting arts appear to not be effective in the eyes of some, is the lack of SD techniques that we typically see in most other arts. I'll use Kenpo for example. There're defenses for pretty much every attack out there: punches, grabs, chokes, kicks, weapons, etc. Usually the sport guys say that the notion of defending yourself against multiple, weapons, etc, is a fallacy. I commented to Steve that if in fact this is true, then technically all one really needs to work on, is pure fighting skill.

So, what are your thoughts? Do people in the arts need preset techs. to use as a base, to defned against the things I mentioned above, or is just pure fighting skill, such as we'd see in the ring, good enough?

There's a lot to discuss here. I'm going to leave aside the issue of defense against weapons for the moment because that's a whole big topic in itself that I could easily get sidetracked on.

One thing to consider is the type of sporting competition you are talking about. A MMA practitioner certainly has tools in his kit to handle pretty much any type of unarmed attack. On the other hand, a BJJer who trains exclusively for IBJJF competition is in a similar position to a TKD practitioner who only trains for Olympic style competition. Both can be dangerous because they are tough athletes with the tools to cause serious harm. Both are potentially vulnerable because they are training for rules which don't allow the most common real world attacks and encourage some bad habits for street self-defense. Of course, just because someone trains for competition doesn't mean they can't also train for self-defense. Both BJJ and TKD have techniques to deal with the sorts of attacks which are not included in competition. I teach a BJJ fundamentals class and my primary focus is on making sure my students can use their skills in a self-defense context first and foremost. Tournament techniques can come later.

There are other dangers to focusing too much on a competition mindset. It encourages a dueling mentality where two players are facing each other, having agreed to fight and having agreed on the rules, waging a symmetric fight to overcome the other's defenses. There are good lessons to be learned from that sort of exercise, but it is rather different from the realities of self-defense. To balance that out I would recommend scenario-based training and asymmetric drills where the participants have different rules and objectives.

The bit about "preset techniques vs pure fighting skill" is somewhat irrelevant. Whether you're training for competition or for the street you need both. For competition you need to spend more time training counters for sophisticated martial arts techniques which are mostly irrelevant for a street fight.

 

[ballen0351]

I would say the public at large thinks that boxers, wrestlers, and MMA fighters can beat the crap out of someone, and handle themselves well in a self-defense situation. I've heard plenty of folks say that Karate or Kung Fu doesn't work in the street, but I have yet to hear anyone say the same about MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc. So the question then becomes; Who thinks that martial athletes can't defend themselves?

So because the non-educated "public at large" believes something it must be true? Also Im not sure what this "public at large" is you speak of since I see Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu schools on almost every corner. If the public at large didnt believe they were effective they wouldn't still be in business

 

[Hanzou]

So because the non-educated "public at large" believes something it must be true? Also Im not sure what this "public at large" is you speak of since I see Karate, TKD, and Kung Fu schools on almost every corner. If the public at large didnt believe they were effective they wouldn't still be in business

I've read that many martial arts schools are actually in decline in the US while MMA schools are on the upswing. Karate for example declined by 26% in the last few years.

I'll see if I can dig up the article.

 

[ballen0351]

I've read that many martial arts schools are actually in decline in the US while MMA schools are on the upswing. Karate for example declined by 26% in the last few years.

I'll see if I can dig up the article.

So your saying people are into the "next new thing". Yeah that happens. These things change every decade or so. Karate after WW2 then Kung fu and similar stuff in the 60s and 70s then TKD in the 80s and 90s. Krav for a few years MMA now until the next new thing comes along. its all cyclical. Still if "the public at large" as you claim thinks Karate does not work why are there still schools packed with people. If everyone knows MMA can "beat the crap out of people". Why do people bother learning anything else? Maybe its the attitude of "beating the crap out of people" that turn most people off since most people have no desire to go around "beating the crap out of people"

 

[Kframe]

So your saying people are into the "next new thing". Yeah that happens. These things change every decade or so. Karate after WW2 then Kung fu and similar stuff in the 60s and 70s then TKD in the 80s and 90s. Krav for a few years MMA now until the next new thing comes along. its all cyclical. Still if "the public at large" as you claim thinks Karate does not work why are there still schools packed with people. If everyone knows MMA can "beat the crap out of people". Why do people bother learning anything else? Maybe its the attitude of "beating the crap out of people" that turn most people off since most people have no desire to go around "beating the crap out of people"

Since the majority of karate and tkd on every street corner is mcdojo id say your wrong about them going out of business if they didn't work. The skill sets from mcdojo's don't work yet they still remain.

People who can "beat the crap out of people" generally can also defend them selves very well. Maybe its time TMA look at mma as the THE threat they are. Thugs and gangsta's are not training karate, they are doing mma... IF tma can not meet the threat that mma truly is, then tma needs to end or change. MMA is the the most dangerous unarmed threat to the average person and martial artist of our time. IF your art is not realistically prepared to meet it, then it needs to end. All this BS of "to deadly for the ring" is just BS. Stop relying on low percentage techs and focus on high percentage ones. The high percentage techs set up the low percentage "deadly" techs.

MMA is constantly evolving and adding new techniques, yet TMA is stagnant having learned nothing from the spanking they got from 1993 onwards. You would think that tma would start addressing there shortcomings after your best and brightest get spanked, yet they didn't. Videos still crop up of TMA getting spanked. Im willing to bet, the time will come, when you start seeing mma guys, start applying and making a real art out active deflections. Once they figure out they need to move past boxing, they will out karate-karate, and out WC-WC.

Darwinism needs to finally apply to the martial arts.

 

[Steve]

Here's an interesting video, just food for thought:

The description starts with: The simple truth is, the bad guys are learning. With the explosive growth of MMA around the world, basic submissions, positions, and fight strategies have never been so familiar to everyday people around the world.

 

[K-man]

Since the majority of karate and tkd on every street corner is mcdojo id say your wrong about them going out of business if they didn't work. The skill sets from mcdojo's don't work yet they still remain.

That is just not true. I don't know much about TKD schools but TKD is an Olympic sport and a lot of parents would like the dream of their child representing their country. I would say the vast majority of TKD schools would be genuine. Same goes for karate schools. There are a few McDojo around but I think the McDojo thread may have clouded the vision. Not only that but despite their ethics McDojo can still produce reasonable martial artists and often they will advertise their success in tournaments.

People who can "beat the crap out of people" generally can also defend them selves very well. Maybe its time TMA look at mma as the THE threat they are. Thugs and gangsta's are not training karate, they are doing mma... IF tma can not meet the threat that mma truly is, then tma needs to end or change.

What's with the style bashing that's come to MT since a certain person has come on board. TMAs aren't threatened by MMA. Millions of people train TMAs. TMAs don't need to change anything. TMAs are part of a smorgasbord of martial arts available to people.

MMA is the the most dangerous unarmed threat to the average person and martial artist of our time. IF your art is not realistically prepared to meet it, then it needs to end. All this BS of "to deadly for the ring" is just BS. Stop relying on low percentage techs and focus on high percentage ones. The high percentage techs set up the low percentage "deadly" techs.

Where did that nonsense come from? Really? Most MMA students are just like the students in any other decent MA school. You're one of the only ones here spouting off about 'too deadly for the ring'. And ... "MMA the most dangerous unarmed threat to the average person and martial artist of our time." Unbelievable! :idunno: Say it often enough and it becomes a fact!

MMA is constantly evolving and adding new techniques, yet TMA is stagnant having learned nothing from the spanking they got from 1993 onwards. You would think that tma would start addressing there shortcomings after your best and brightest get spanked, yet they didn't. Videos still crop up of TMA getting spanked. Im willing to bet, the time will come, when you start seeing mma guys, start applying and making a real art out active deflections. Once they figure out they need to move past boxing, they will out karate-karate, and out WC-WC.

Darwinism needs to finally apply to the martial arts.

OMG! One of the best style bashing posts I have ever seen.
:hb:

 

[Kframe]

K man you say TMA don't need to change. Why is that? Do you think that run of the mill karate training will prepare someone to deal with a thug mma artist? Which is common despite you not thinking they are. I met all kinds of them during my stint in mma. About the only modern art with out the thuggery is BJJ, of course I could be wrong.

It may be style bashing but I don't understand this head in the sand attitude that most tma have. This refusal to address the new threats and how to effectively deal with them.

Thugs and other social miscreants are drawn to MMA. MMA is very effective at takeing down TMA arts. If your art can not deal with and defeat even a mma with 1 year of experience then it has failed. There are not nice people in mma. Karate does not draw in those types. The threat has changed, why hasn't TMA?

The more I train, the more I watch, the more I read, the more I see one sided martial arts as dinosaurs. Why am I the only one that can see the threat they pose.

I used to long to do karate/tkd. To emulate my father.. Then reality hit me.. My father is one of a kind born out through countless hours of self study and sparring with his wrestle/boxer twin. This epiphany has lead me to become quite disillusioned with Traditional arts as of late. Some time ago, I even walked into a KKW tkd dojang. I was ready to sign up. Guy taught traditional as well as the Olympic. Was a judo black belt, with several other arts. He brought up the question of dealing with the ground. He never taught any of the many valid judo syllabus on Newaza to his students. His only statement was we don't go to the ground, I teach to avoid it. (ya, how? What specific technique)

Knowing full well he could teach good ground, and refused, and then this BS statement I hear many tma make, I knew then Id never be satisfied and would feel only like half a martial artist.

So ya, maybe I shouldn't style bash. That does not change, my feelings that, traditional martial artists need to be realistic with themselves. They need to take a deep hard look at how they train and ask if they are realistically prepared to deal with emerging threats.

Why shouldn't tma change. There is no reason why a art like karate should take 5-6 years before you can understand it enough to actually use it in a fight or situation.. Ill put it to you the way my coach put it. (he had lots of years in karate as well as catch wrestling and bjj) "I don't judge a martial art by their black belts, I judge them based on how well there white belts can defend them selves."

 

[RTKDCMB]

For response, see any of the 100 or so other threads on the subject.

 

[K-man]

K man you say TMA don't need to change. Why is that? Do you think that run of the mill karate training will prepare someone to deal with a thug mma artist? Which is common despite you not thinking they are. I met all kinds of them during my stint in mma. About the only modern art with out the thuggery is BJJ, of course I could be wrong.

Firstly most people training TMA are learning it for reasons other than beating up people on the street. Where I live that is highly unlikely and if you practise common sense and don't go looking for trouble most people will never need to use their training. Even training in a McDojo can provide what some people are happy with.

It may be style bashing but I don't understand this head in the sand attitude that most tma have. This refusal to address the new threats and how to effectively deal with them.

One of the great things about MT is that people don't style bash. Those that do have little orange boxes under their name and often end up banned. We all train our different arts for different reasons and none of us would be training if we believed our style wasn't what we want then we would change. I did that after training in a McDojo years ago.

Thugs and other social miscreants are drawn to MMA. MMA is very effective at takeing down TMA arts. If your art can not deal with and defeat even a mma with 1 year of experience then it has failed. There are not nice people in mma. Karate does not draw in those types. The threat has changed, why hasn't TMA?

I happen to believe that TMA taught properly is every bit as effective as MMA or BJJ. Sure we don't spend as much time rolling as those guys but we do train to escape from the ground. I would agree that one year of karate training is not going to give you a lot of protection on the street but if that is what someone wants I would teach them Krav or Systema. But here again, Krav and Systema took there techniques from other MAs like Aikido, Muay Thai and Karate. Almost every technique in Aikido is identifiable in our karate kata so I teach all those. The softness of Systema and the isolation of various body parts in moving kicking and striking is very close to what you find in aikido and Goju karate. Krav is simple, brutal and effective. Once again you see the similarities to karate when you train these styles.

The more I train, the more I watch, the more I read, the more I see one sided martial arts as dinosaurs. Why am I the only one that can see the threat they pose.

Now this is interesting. I would agree that one sided martial arts are not the best option. Nothing I teach or train is one dimensional. My Aikido contains punches, elbows, knees, kicks ground work as well as all the locks holds and takedowns. My Krav also has all that as does my Systema. Everything in those systems is in my Goju karate which is one of the few true Okinawan TMAs. There is no threat to my martial art from MMA.

I used to long to do karate/tkd. To emulate my father.. Then reality hit me.. My father is one of a kind born out through countless hours of self study and sparring with his wrestle/boxer twin. This epiphany has lead me to become quite disillusioned with Traditional arts as of late. Some time ago, I even walked into a KKW tkd dojang. I was ready to sign up. Guy taught traditional as well as the Olympic. Was a judo black belt, with several other arts. He brought up the question of dealing with the ground. He never taught any of the many valid judo syllabus on Newaza to his students. His only statement was we don't go to the ground, I teach to avoid it. (ya, how? What specific technique)

I'm not going to bag TKD. As I said before, people train TKD for different reasons. Like you, it is not my first choice.

Knowing full well he could teach good ground, and refused, and then this BS statement I hear many tma make, I knew then Id never be satisfied and would feel only like half a martial artist.

That BS statement is just a generalisation. Most of us don't want to go to the ground and you can teach in such a way as to reduce that happening. Both Systema and Aikido teach similar tactics. However, it is inevitable that at some stage you are likely to go to the ground. I would rather teach how to get off the ground than to stay on the ground.

So ya, maybe I shouldn't style bash. That does not change, my feelings that, traditional martial artists need to be realistic with themselves. They need to take a deep hard look at how they train and ask if they are realistically prepared to deal with emerging threats.

Once again, I can agree with your sentiment. But again, it depends on what people want to get from their training. If you have read many of my other posts you would find me referring to 'schoolboy' karate. This is not putting it down but it is the basic level of training and some people never get beyond that level. In karate we call it kihon. All the basics you see and the line drills are kihon. Kata as you see it in competition is kihon. You don't fight using kihon techniques, these are for learning. The advanced training should occur next but often it is missing. If it is not your intention to use your training in the ring or on the street then it doesn't matter. A lot of people in TMA cross train to achieve the skills they feel they need, and I did the same myself. Then I found that everything I was cross training was in my own style, just that I hadn't had a teacher with the knowledge necessary to teach it.

Why shouldn't tma change. There is no reason why a art like karate should take 5-6 years before you can understand it enough to actually use it in a fight or situation..

Again, I am only speaking for karate as I don't pretend to know much about ninjutsu etc. Karate has no need to change. For me it is a lifetime of exploration and development, a journey if you like. If you want immediate fighting skills, sure there are things like Krav and combatives are available. But even BJJ takes about 10 years to blackbelt.

Ill put it to you the way my coach put it. (he had lots of years in karate as well as catch wrestling and bjj) "I don't judge a martial art by their black belts, I judge them based on how well there white belts can defend them selves."

I think it is unreasonable to look at a white belt in that way. That is only up to three months training and you are struggling to get a grasp of basics at that level. I don't normally teach kids but I do have two fourteen year olds in class, one is my grandson and the other the son of one of the blackbelts. Last week in class the later was in the centre of a ring of six adults who were pushing, shoving and lightly hitting him. His spirit was fantastic. He should grade up from his white belt later this week.

There are many reasons why TMAs don't wish to compete or train a sport based style. Don't mistake that for a lack of skill or ability.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Here's an interesting video, just food for thought:

The descripoint starts with:.[COL33333]The simple truth is, the bad guys are learning. With the explosive growth ofwround the world, basic submissions, ptions, and fight strategies have never been so familiar to everyday people around the world. [/COLOR]

Ive seen that before. My biggest problem with that clip is the officers were given strict rules about what they can and cant do . Mainly no strikes or pressure points or other tools like baton taser or OC spray. Im not rolling around in the ground with you like that. You resist im upping the force. First a few knees to your thigh. If that dont work a few strikes to the arms. Stll no ill uae my baton for leverage to pry your arm out. Still no then im moving to drive stun with taser or im using facial pressure points like under the nose or behind the jaw.
Ive been to a class taught by guys that went to that Gracie class. When i askes why we dont start going up the force ladder they said "because it defeats the purpose of the drill" I asked if the purpose of the drill was to grapple or actually arrest him. They got pissed and walked away.

My biggest problem with a long grappling exchange with a suspect is your laying on him he's exerting himself. Most people we arrest are normally under the influence of something you risk positional asphyxia.

 

[ballen0351]

Kframe do you really believe that someone learning karateor other TMA ccan't defend himself against a MMA thug? What special super secret deadly techniques are you learning in MMA that TMA does no have?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Thugs and other social miscreants are drawn to MMA.

Then that's something they need to work on, either by fixing them or sending them away.

MMA is very effective at takeing down TMA arts.

Like so many others, you are only basing that only on what you have seen in MMA compettitions, the UFC and the like and YouTube, This represents only a relatively miniscule amount of information. If, for example, you based that assumption only on the UFC and no other source, there were only a few fights where a TMA was taken down a peg and all of the fights involved only one or two martial artists from any one system, and only those who chose to compete. Not really a good sized sample for which to form an opinion (you cannot put in a gold mine based on finding a few nuggets here and there, you have to test the whole area). After a few UFC's fighters started training specifically for MMA making any kind of comparison less and less accurate.

If your art can not deal with and defeat even a mma with 1 year of experience then it has failed. There are not nice people in mma. Karate does not draw in those types. The threat has changed, why hasn't TMA?

The biggest threat MMA poses to a TMAist is getting grabbed and taken down, particularly the single or double leg takedown. certainly not the striking. The double leg takedown is not much more different to the tackle and TMA's have been teaching the defence for that since day one, the same applies to bearhugs for the clinch.

Some time ago, I even walked into a KKW tkd dojang. I was ready to sign up. Guy taught traditional as well as the Olympic. Was a judo black belt, with several other arts. He brought up the question of dealing with the ground. He never taught any of the many valid judo syllabus on Newaza to his students. His only statement was we don't go to the ground, I teach to avoid it. (ya, how? What specific technique)

Knowing full well he could teach good ground, and refused, and then this BS statement I hear many tma make, I knew then Id never be satisfied and would feel only like half a martial artist.

Then that is a failure of that particular school/dojang and/or instructor, not the art itself and certainly not all forms of it.

So ya, maybe I shouldn't style bash. That does not change, my feelings that, traditional martial artists need to be realistic with themselves. They need to take a deep hard look at how they train and ask if they are realistically prepared to deal with emerging threats.

Realism is a part of any good self defence martial art.

There is no reason why a art like karate should take 5-6 years before you can understand it enough to actually use it in a fight or situation.

It only takes about 3 months to start to get some practical self defence benefit out of a TMA if it's taught correctly, I don't know where you got the 5-6 years from.

MMA is constantly evolving and adding new techniques, yet TMA is stagnant having learned nothing from the spanking they got from 1993 onwards. You would think that tma would start addressing there shortcomings after your best and brightest get spanked, yet they didn't. Videos still crop up of TMA getting spanked. Im willing to bet, the time will come, when you start seeing mma guys, start applying and making a real art out active deflections. Once they figure out they need to move past boxing, they will out karate-karate, and out WC-WC.

Darwinism needs to finally apply to the martial arts.

Again you are basing that on limited information. I can't speak for anyone else but my art is constantly evolving, new techniques are being devised and taught, new training methods have been intoduced, the ways of doing certain techniques have changed over the years (since I have been training the basic turning kick has changed at least twice to make it more powerful). You really have no good idea what goes on most of the time in my school, or any one of the hundreds of schools out there based on what is shown in videos. It's like judging a movie based only on the previews

A note on Darwinism - It took the MMA world nearly 20 years to finally figure out that the front snap kick is an effective technique (when Lyoto Machida started knocking people out with it) whereas in TMA it has been likely known for centuries. And lets not forget his famous quote "Ignorance begets confidence far more that does wisdom".

 

[seasoned]

There are many reasons why TMAs don't wish to compete or train a sport based style. Don't mistake that for a lack of skill or ability.
:asian:

The least of which are ALL low kicks, you are what you train, not hampered by a rule set, not limited by all the protective gear, a desire to end it as soon as possible.
A mind set that if I can get to your eyes you can't see and if I can nail your knee I can slow down your mobility. :asian:

 

[Hanzou]

Kframe do you really believe that someone learning karateor other TMA ccan't defend himself against a MMA thug? What special super secret deadly techniques are you learning in MMA that TMA does no have?

I wouldn't say its a super deadly technique in so much as its competition that is giving MMA the edge over TMA. For example, after the first UFC, ground fighting exploded, and everyone realized how important it was to learn how to defend yourself if someone puts you on the ground. Before that, most people didn't train for ground fighting at all. In fact, when the Gracies first arrived in the states, they had a hard time getting students because no one wanted to fight on the ground. With Royce's performance in the UFC, that all changed. Today, most people think you're crazy if you don't teach ground fighting of some type for sport AND self defense.

In Bjj, the Triangle Choke re-emerged because a Brazilian was flipping through an old Judo book from the 1920s, and decided to use the technique during a Bjj match. The choke was so effective that it was quickly added into the Bjj curriculum.

A lot of MMA gyms are currently seeking Boxing coaches because a lot of MMA fighters are requesting it to help in their stand up. Anderson Silva's evasion tactics, and Alexander Gustafsson's strong performance against Jon Jones showed how great Boxing skills can make a difference in a fight.

That isn't to say that all competition can be good. Some arts definitely suffer because of it. Judo being a prime example of how sport rules can damage a martial art. However, if utilized properly, competition can make a martial art a lot better, and push its evolution. MMA and Bjj are great examples of that.