Sport And TMA....Again

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,504
Reaction score
1,096
But its no longer that art. If my art uses groin shots small joint manipulation throat shots eye gouges as a portion of the art and you remove them then its no longer my art its just a fraction of the art.

Bjj has spine dislocations, knee breaks, ankle breaks, wrist breaks, and moves that could potentially kill someone. If I enter a Bjj tournament that doesn't allow most of that, am I still doing Bjj? What if I use Bjj to control them, but stop short of applying the force to dislocate their spine, am I still doing Bjj?

Come on man... :rolleyes:
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
Bjj has spine dislocations, knee breaks, ankle breaks, wrist breaks, and moves that could potentially kill someone. If I enter a Bjj tournament that doesn't allow most of that, am I still doing Bjj? What if I use Bjj to control them, but stop short of applying the force to dislocate their spine, am I still doing Bjj?

Come on man... :rolleyes:

No your doing a sport version on BJJ not all arts have a Sport version
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
Besides if I spent all my time learning an Art why would I want to change it to fit a set of rules to compete when my art was never intended to be competitive in the first place?
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,221
Location
Australia
LoL! Okay then, please show me some Aikido reaping throws. I'll even help you out, they look something like this;

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kosotogari.htm
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

Despite your obvious extensive knowledge of Aikido, these are not Aikido throws, so takedowns in Aikido do not look like that. You lifted them all from a judo site. However, as been pointed out they do exist in other styles and they do exist in my 'hybrid' karate. They are actually in the 'hybrid' kata that Goju people perform.

The fight shown was described as NHB. The fact that the aikido guy used a reap to take down his opponent is irrelevant or are you saying that in say UFC an Aikidoka could not use any technique that was not in an Aikido syllabus, if there was such a thing? That is patently ludicrous like many of your assertions.


If you need to refer back to the video, they were performed at 0:54 in the first video, and about 1:02 in the second video.

The point? Reaping throws are practical, and easy to pull off. Much easier than catching someone's wrist in midair and putting them in a wrist lock.

Catching a wrist in mid air is actually a lot easier than I would have thought before I started aikido. However, catching a wrist in mid air with one hand is considerably more difficult and retaining the grip with one hand, nearly impossible. As to applying a wrist lock with only one hand, very difficult.



The point is that when the poop hits the fan, both guys clinch, wrestle each other to the ground, and get into a submission fight.

Both guys might clinch and both guys might go to the ground. Submission fight is sport which is if you remember back that far is what the thread was about before you turned it into "BJJ is great, Aikido sucks" thread. In the main, Aikido is not sport.

But even so, a number of Aikido submission holds are performed on the ground so to say that the Aikidoka in the video was on the ground out of the context of Aikido is not true.


The Aikidoka's guillotine attempt for example.

I'd love to see how how good your Guillotine choke would be with one hand. I missed your edit which from a subsequent post suggested we don't practise those in aikido. Obviously we do. Apart from the obvious reason for practising chokes is that we need chokes to practise escapes from chokes.

That depends on the teams playing. Take the recent Florida St vs Duke game. Florida completely dominated Duke, and the quarterback was rarely touched. It looked like Florida was having a practice.

Again, it's a terrible comparison. Football practice resembles actual football play. Aikido practice doesn't resemble actual Aikido in play at all.

As Kirk said, Randori is not Shiai. In Randori one is practising receiving, or rolling out of a throw, and the other is practising blending of strength or force. Nothing to do with fighting as such. Surely with your huge knowledge of Aikido you can understand that.

How stupid is it to say "Aikido practice doesn't resemble actual Aikido in play at all"? Training in randori is not fighting. Training to apply nikyo is exactly as you fight, training Iriminage is exactly as you fight (Seagal's favourite), training sankyo is exactly as it is performed in say a knife disarm, the 'heavy hands' we practise is exactly the way we strike and same for kote gaeshi etc. Give me a break. :hb:



We're diverging from the point. The point is that when we enter an actual fight situation, the standing opponents clinch, and then attempt to take each other to the ground and attempt to dominate each other.

No we don't, at least not intentionally. We try to finish the fight quickly without going to the ground ourselves. That is the difference between sport and TMA. And if we​ go to the ground, normally we try to regain our feet ASAP because in an actual fight situation, we recognise the fact that in most cases the ground is not the best place to be.

It happened in that Aikido vs MMA vid, It happened at the UFC, it's happened in numerous street fighting vids, and it happens in boxing and MMA. It happens over and over again.

Again, you cannot recognise the difference between sport and reality based MA. In sporting contests most go to the ground for a variety of reasons.

Let's explore the idea that most fights go to the ground. In most sporting contests the contestants are of a similar standard. Therefore many of their skills are cancelled out and the resort to whatever they can do to gain the advantage. That may well take the contest to the ground because they perceive that to be their strength. Many street fights would also be between untrained people of similar ability. In this situation of course size would give an advantage. Once again, in a situation, where skills are negated, it could very well go to the ground.

Now let's have a scenario where there is a highly trained stand up fighter like say Tyson. Against an untrained fighter in the pub, do you really think he would want to take the fight to the ground? That is a nonsense. Now shift the scenario slightly to a martial artist, of any persuasion, of reasonable ability, against an untrained person or even against someone with some limited MA training. Most would have no thought of taking a real fight to the ground. Of course it could happen by accident but highly unlikely by design.

They don't go to the ground because they can't. However they do clinch, constantly. I'm sure if they were allowed to do takedowns, they would.

lol

Which is half of the point of randori. Another important point of randori is that it's not shiai.
Exactly!
 

Jean Marais

Yellow Belt
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Berlin
I wonder why they call it Art? Is it a form of self expression? Can I sportly express my competitiveness? I always think of art as the novel self made creation of something beautiful (at least to myself) which requires innovation and skill.
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,221
Location
Australia
If you ever get an honest answer to this question, I will be amazed.

Simple answer; They weren't biased against traditional martial arts. They still aren't. If removing fish hooks, biting, groin shots, and hair pulling completely invalidates your martial art's effectiveness, then you're not learning much of a martial art.
Why list the tiny bits that you use to enhance and not mention perhaps my main strike, the point of the elbow or the strikes to the spine or back of head, head butts, stomps, eye gouges, groin strikes etc. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,221
Location
Australia
Bjj has spine dislocations, knee breaks, ankle breaks, wrist breaks, and moves that could potentially kill someone. If I enter a Bjj tournament that doesn't allow most of that, am I still doing Bjj? What if I use Bjj to control them, but stop short of applying the force to dislocate their spine, am I still doing Bjj?

Come on man... :rolleyes:
Please show me on YouTube any of the above. I mean, if it's not on YouTube it doesn't exist.
 

TFP

Blue Belt
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
233
Reaction score
2
Then why does anyone still learn anything else in MMA if all you need is a little Gracie magic
Well I was talking pre MMA, style vs style. Now once these other fighters started learning the ground, learning TDD, etc then it changed the landscape from style vs style to "Mixed-Martial-Arts". GJJ isn't magic, it's just what works, along with other ground fighting arts. The is, if you don't know enough ground fighting you are going to be in trouble if you run across someone that does.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with striking styles, but IMO you had better mix in a healthy does of grappling training.
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
Well I was talking pre MMA, style vs style. Now once these other fighters started learning the ground, learning TDD, etc then it changed the landscape from style vs style to "Mixed-Martial-Arts". GJJ isn't magic, it's just what works, along with other ground fighting arts. The is, if you don't know enough ground fighting you are going to be in trouble if you run across someone that does.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with striking styles, but IMO you had better mix in a healthy does of grappling training.
And you better equally mixnin a healthy does of striking if all you got is a ground game
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,221
Location
Australia
Well I was talking pre MMA, style vs style. Now once these other fighters started learning the ground, learning TDD, etc then it changed the landscape from style vs style to "Mixed-Martial-Arts". GJJ isn't magic, it's just what works, along with other ground fighting arts. The is, if you don't know enough ground fighting you are going to be in trouble if you run across someone that does.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with striking styles, but IMO you had better mix in a healthy does of grappling training.
I don't think anyone has an issue with that. Many of us have benefitted from cross training even if only to better understand our own system. What the UFC and MMA pointed out in dramatic fashion was that if you really want to compete in a mixed environment against properly trained opponents you need to lift your ground skills significantly. Whether or not that requirement translates into the RBSD scene is open to conjecture. No one is saying that you don't need basic skills but I would maintain that I don't need the grappling skills of a BJJ black belt to be proficient at what I do.
:asian:
 

TFP

Blue Belt
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
233
Reaction score
2
But its no longer that art. If my art uses groin shots small joint manipulation throat shots eye gouges as a portion of the art and you remove them then its no longer my art its just a fraction of the art.
GJJ uses all of these tactics as well, not to mention hey were not banned for the early UFC's.
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
GJJ uses all of these tactics as well, not to mention hey were not banned for the early UFC's.

You keep clinging to this UFC nonsense like it means anything its still a sport nobody was trying to hurt anyone they were trying to win a game. It means nothing beyond that. Its not and end all be all. Plus they were banned UFC1 rules included

Despite being billed as having "no rules" there were limitations on what the fighters could do, including no biting, no eye gouging and no strikes to the groin.
 

Kframe

Black Belt
Joined
May 9, 2011
Messages
651
Reaction score
12
Location
NE Indiana
Ballen I hate to disagree with your quote, but there is a video that CLEARLY shows some striker in UFC4 getting taken down and his only defense was to repeatedly punch the other guys Jewels.
It was allowed.

I think you were refereeing to UFC 1 and ya it was illegal in that but subsequently Changed.

That looked painfull.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TFP

Blue Belt
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
233
Reaction score
2
Why list the tiny bits that you use to enhance and not mention perhaps my main strike, the point of the elbow or the strikes to the spine or back of head, head butts, stomps, eye gouges, groin strikes etc. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Non of those were illegal in the early UFC's!!!!!!!!!! You keep ignoring this fact, those were allowed!
 

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ules-from-no-holds-barred-to-highly-regulated


And though the fights were advertised as having no rules, that wasn't entirely true. At the inaugural UFC event, there were three rules: no biting, eye gouging or groin strikes.*

Ironically, these were the same rules employed for the ancient Greek sport of Pankration, a precursor to modern mixed martial arts.*



Ballen I hate to disagree with your quote, but there is a video that CLEARLY shows some striker in UFC4 getting taken down and his only defense was to repeatedly punch the other guys Jewels.

That looked painfull.

Your not disagreeing with me your disagreeing with every article I've read on the internet maybe the internet is wrong
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ballen0351

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
10,400
Reaction score
1,055
Non of those were illegal in the early UFC's!!!!!!!!!! You keep ignoring this fact, those were allowed!

And only 8 people fought in the first UFC hardly a great sample of martial arts what's the point?
 
Top