Sparring

[clfsean]

What I've found is that usually the martial artists that think that it's not important are not that good in sparring! or they have a really difficult time with free-style techniques.

Coincidence? Maybe, but the opposite is also true, the ones that are good, also believe that it's important.

Depends... I'm not at good point/sport sparring. I'm not. Never have been, never will. I will get tagged to death in a points match. No two ways about it.

However... I do believe in throwing a properly timed, executed & force inclusive technique. So I will take (not you specifically) your head & move it to your hips the first chance I get to drop a sao choy on you. Funny thing is... all my kung fu brothers think the same.

When we used to spar (everybody's gone their own way now), it was a brief clash of two people intent on knocking the other down or out... whichever came first... resetting & continuing. On more ocassions than I can count, we would leave bloody, bruised, roadrashed and unfortunately more than once, on the way to the ER.

However, we also learned really quickly about what does/doesn't work & the "respect for nature" in that environment. We also learned who would (not) and could (not) take shots.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What I've found is that usually the martial artists that think that it's not important are not that good in sparring! or they have a really difficult time with free-style techniques.

Coincidence? Maybe, but the opposite is also true, the ones that are good, also believe that it's important.

Once again, the term sparring needs to be qualified.

Most people are very good in the style of sparring that is a part of their art, regardless of whether they call it sparring or something else.

Also, the question isn't whether or not the person is good at sparring or not but whether or not sparring is a necessity. Does sparring actually prepare you for, or otherwise benefit you in, what it is you train to do? In many cases, it probably depends on the nature of the sparring.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

When we used to spar (everybody's gone their own way now), it was a brief clash of two people intent on knocking the other down or out... whichever came first... resetting & continuing. On more ocassions than I can count, we would leave bloody, bruised, roadrashed and unfortunately more than once, on the way to the ER.

funny how that happens with this stuff.

The thing is, a lot of stuff really doesn't lend itself well to free sparring. A lot of techniques are really, all or nothing. Either I don't hit you at all, or I hit you to destroy you. If I try to soften it up and go part way, it doesn't work at all and I just get destroyed in free sparring. Not much good comes of it. But if I use it like it's intended, I run a very high risk of serious injury to my training partner.

we gotta remember where this stuff comes from. It comes from a place and time in history when people literally needed to use it to defend their lives and the lives of their family, friends, and village. There was no 911 to call, to get the police to come and help. So a lot of this stuff, historically, was really designed to destroy the enemy as quickly as possible. It was never meant to be a game or a sport. A "sparring" match meant someone ended up in bed for a month, getting treated for internal injuries or broken bones.

In the modern day, people look for a way to apply this stuff as a game or sport. That's OK, if that's what you want. But it's important to understand the difference. If you want to pursue the gaming/sporting aspect of this stuff, you need to significantly change the very techniques you use, and the fundamental way you do things. In my opinion, you have then turned it into something else altogether. If that's what you want, no problem. But if you want to keep the original integrity of the art more in line with what it was originally, then it becomes very difficult to use it in a gaming/sporting way.

For me, my intentions are to maintain the original integrity of the system to the highest level that I am able. I don't "spar" because it isn't condusive to that, with the kind of material that I train. However, I do drill my material in a way that includes resistant opponents and an ability to hammer this stuff for real. It's a different method from free sparring, but it does develop very solid self defense skills.

that's my way, anyhow. I won't pass judgement on those who like to spar. It can be fun and it's possible to learn some things from it. But it's something different, and I don't choose to do it that way.

 

[MJS]

Not so much unrealistic, as there is a difference between sparring in a sport setting versus a martial art setting, and each has a different value and aim. Your definition of sparring included things that we all consider sparring, but the question is sparring in preparation for what?

If you are training for stop-point karate, WTF Taekwondo, or BJJ tournaments, then sparring in those idioms is entirely realistic: you are preparing to fight under a specific set of conditions, and to train differently would be counterproductive. I do, however, consider such tournaments and the preparation that goes into them to be firmly in the territory of games/sports.

Nothing wrong with them, and certainly, there is enough crossover with actual fighting that a person who is extremely competent in any of the three will certainly not be bereft of tools in the even of a violent encounter.

Same holds true for boxing, but boxers don't make a stink about whether or not boxing is an MA the way that sport taekwondoists do regarding the WTF tournament style taekwondo. Maybe because no belts are involved?

There needs to be some element of aliveness and randomness at some point in training, regardless of what you want to call it, and that element needs to be, within the bounds of reason, not artificial in its design.

WTF sparring is an artificial type of fighting in that it artificially makes high kicks predominant and eliminates all of the real world consequences of using high kicks.

Point-stop karate is less artificial in that it allows greater use of hand technique, but is highly artificial because it presupposes that you've killed your opponent with a punch or a kick and thus you stop fighing after scoring a point. And of course, it lacks grappling.

Boxing is less artificial. Yes, it focuses on hands, but that is what most people are going to naturally use predominantly anyway, and boxing is continuous, but boxing eliminates kicks and grapples entirely.

BJJ, judo, and other forms of wrestling are artificial in that they eliminate all strikes.

MMA is the least artificial in that it allows the greatest breadth of techniques, but it is still artificial in that it is set up in such a way that a grappler will have certain advantages.

Finally, all of them share the element that you are in a one on one, controled physical contest with another individual and the element of escaping is entirely eliminated.

Now, I am not disrespecting these sports. And yes, they are sports. They're hard, and if I jumped into the ring in any of those sports, I would probably be just as out of my element as if a WTF fighter jumped in to the shaijo to fight against me in a kendo match. And yes, I realize that kendo, karate, taekwondo, judo and BJJ are all considered martial arts. But the tournament fighting that these arts are associated with are sports. Plain and simple. Nothing wrong with that, but people do not like to admit it.

I suppose then that what constitutes a martial art and where the line is between sport and MA needs to be considered, but that is a different discussion that I will not get into in this thread.

I'm also not going to get into the whole 'they'd die on the deadly street' because I have yet to hear a convincing arguement that TKD/Karate/BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Boxing/MMA athletes would indeed suddenly become incapable outside of the ring. I think that all of them have the advantage of regular training with resisting opponents, something that most people do not have. But their training is very specialized in a way that it would not be if you were preparing soley to defend one's self in a non competition environment.

Anyway, the only two scenarios that I felt were completely unrealistic were the fitness oriented class and the 'larping', though MA based fitness programs do not masquerade as self defense, while the last example that I gave (larping disguised as MA) does. The fact of the matter is that if your techniques only work when your partner allows them to or on your own students (no touch KO's anyone?) and you never train with a partner who offers any real resistance, then that is unrealistic and amounts to larping.

Hope that makes sense, as I kind of felt like I was rambling a bit.

Daniel

I'll keep my reply short. I'll go to your other thread and comment about what I feel sparring is. As for the sport/martial aspect....its been years since I've entered a tournament. However, I still spar for various reasons. IMO, I think its a good thing, as it allows you to work a variety of things during training.

 

[clfsean]

funny how that happens with this stuff.

Yep... like it's supposed to.

The thing is, a lot of stuff really doesn't lend itself well to free sparring. A lot of techniques are really, all or nothing. Either I don't hit you at all, or I hit you to destroy you. If I try to soften it up and go part way, it doesn't work at all and I just get destroyed in free sparring. Not much good comes of it. But if I use it like it's intended, I run a very high risk of serious injury to my training partner.

Exactly. See my comment about using a sao choy. Or you using a kahp or pao... or me using it... or a Hung Ga player. It's not meant for tag & you gotta trust your partner. Even then, accidents happen.

we gotta remember where this stuff comes from. It comes from a place and time in history when people literally needed to use it to defend their lives and the lives of their family, friends, and village. There was no 911 to call, to get the police to come and help. So a lot of this stuff, historically, was really designed to destroy the enemy as quickly as possible. It was never meant to be a game or a sport. A "sparring" match meant someone ended up in bed for a month, getting treated for internal injuries or broken bones.

Yep. My sifu's first CLF teacher is from SF Chinatown... very famous school there, even still. WHen he was coming up "back in the day" & asked about sparring, his teacher said go fight. There was plenty of practice in the street.

In the modern day, people look for a way to apply this stuff as a game or sport. That's OK, if that's what you want. But it's important to understand the difference. If you want to pursue the gaming/sporting aspect of this stuff, you need to significantly change the very techniques you use, and the fundamental way you do things. In my opinion, you have then turned it into something else altogether. If that's what you want, no problem. But if you want to keep the original integrity of the art more in line with what it was originally, then it becomes very difficult to use it in a gaming/sporting way.

If you notice, most tournaments don't let a lot of people in. Hell even in CMA tournaments, there are rules on certain techniques, like sao choy specifically. You can't use it because they know what it's for & isn't a tag technique. Hell recently there was a ;arge CMA tournament put on. A CLF uncle of mine had one of his guys DQ'd for throwing a sao choy in the heat of the mix.

For me, my intentions are to maintain the original integrity of the system to the highest level that I am able. I don't "spar" because it isn't condusive to that, with the kind of material that I train. However, I do drill my material in a way that includes resistant opponents and an ability to hammer this stuff for real. It's a different method from free sparring, but it does develop very solid self defense skills.

Booyah!!

that's my way, anyhow. I won't pass judgement on those who like to spar. It can be fun and it's possible to learn some things from it. But it's something different, and I don't choose to do it that way.

Same same.

 

[Flying Crane]

Exactly. See my comment about using a sao choy. Or you using a kahp or pao... or me using it... or a Hung Ga player. It's not meant for tag & you gotta trust your partner. Even then, accidents happen.

ya know, I am really really liking the pek choy, especially how we mix it in with baht gim. I have my guys hold some heavy Thai hand pads to work this, and I feel like I almost tear their arms out at the shoulder when I land it on the pads. Head hunting with it is a really scary thought.

Another one is the chou choy (don't know about the spelling), it's the whipping hook punch striking with the top of the fist. A white crane guy from a different school told me about when he was young and he and friend got into a fight with a guy, he hit the guy across the face with it, and it literally tore his lower jaw from the hinge and relocated it to the side of his face. I believe it too, I work those on the hand pads and the heavy bag, and it's just terrifying. I think most people who train martial arts really don't understand the potential that some of this stuff has. It's just outside the experience of most people.

The stuff we are talking about, the stuff that doesn't work well for sparring, it's not the "poke him in the eye, grab him and crank on his neck, kick him in the nuts" kind of stuff. It's not "dirty fighting" stuff that gets you disqualified in tournaments. It's not even stuff that has to be aimed at vital or unprotected or especially sensitive targets. It's just that we hit really really hard, and what gets hit gets destroyed.

 

[maft]

Do you feel that its a necessary part of training?

Hey, in my opinion it is very necessary, a excellent way to test your skills also very crucial if you want to achieve results in MA.
On the other hand if someone is practicing for fun, and it is not after any MA gradings or fights, or have no interest to do so, then for people like that, I must say, sparring is not necessary.

Cheers,

maft

 

[Tanaka]

Coming from someone who practices in Kata and Sparring.
I'd say they both compliment each other. Kata is the perfect situation(since the attack is pre determined), and gives you the ability to refine your technique. Which in sparring you could end up overlooking.
Now with sparring it gives you the test of having your opponent move at faster pace. Not giving you what you want at all, and countering and/or attacking you. Which can equate to a lot of pressure on you. Since now you have to be able to respond with the correct technique in correspondence to whatever he has given you, without being defeated yourself. Also it will help you get used to the pressure of dealing with this feeling.(Helping you breathe and not instinctively going to muscle)