Sparring

[Ironbear24]

I've known about Cung Le for quite some time. His success in MMA isn't surprising since Sanshou is pretty much Chinese MMA with hand techniques from western boxing, kicks from Kung fu and Muay Thai, and takedowns from Chinese wrestling.

They're pretty weak against grappling though, since they have no ground game. Cung Le actually had to cross-train in Bjj in order to prepare himself for the UFC.

Well then I don't get why you are asking why Chinese martial arts is not used in it, since this guy is using it. Sure he is using it with other arts but cmon dude. You can't knock it or him for that because it is called mma for a reason.

 

[Hanzou]

That changes the entire shape and dynamic of the movement.

The movement is trapping the punch with the "beak" and countering because there's an opening. That opening can literally be anything. Hell, you could go for a backlist to the face. That would be more reliable than attempting to poke out their eyes out from that angle.

Again, altering the nature of the movement. You're essentially asking why people aren't using Tiger and Crane movements to do things they aren't good for. Would you use your side kick to do a front kick? I'm not debating the effectiveness of these techniques for the street (I don't know the principles behind them, and haven't tested them), but simply saying "you could adapt it to a punch" assumes that movement is almost a punch.

Why can't you punch/palm strike/elbow from that angle? It's the exact same general motion, and frankly would be a bit more effective than trying to scratch someone in the face.

Just for comparison, up kicking and heel kicking to the kidneys were both banned in the UFC, and that adversely affected Guard play. However, the Guard is still used in MMA, despite some of its striking being stripped away.

That's not a palm heel of the sort I (and maybe you) am used to. I was taught the palm heel as a striking force (like a typical straight punch or backfist). My understanding is that many strikes in CMA use a driving force, more like a really hard shove. Those will shove someone back if they aren't really well rooted. I can do similar things in some of my techniques, assuming I find someone who has created that opening. If they don't create that opening, you just don't use that particular aspect of the technique. Again, I can't speak to the effectiveness of the strike, but I do know (from having felt it) that even a fairly slow palm heel from at least some CMA's can have tremendous driving force - far more than mine have.

That's fine. I'm just curious as to why we don't see any of this in any form of competition. The only aspects that couldn't be applied are the eye poke and the scratch, methods that have a low chance of success anyway.

Well then I don't get why you are asking why Chinese martial arts is not used in it, since this guy is using it. Sure he is using it with other arts but cmon dude. You can't knock it or him for that because it is called mma for a reason.

There's a pretty big difference between Sanshou and classic Chinese martial arts. Again, the core of Sanshou is western boxing, not native Chinese styles.

BTW, its called MMA because the styles that eventually formed the core of it weren't "complete" martial arts. Bjj for example doesn't have much in way of punches and kicks. Wrestling lacks striking completely, and has no ground submissions. Muay Thai is lacking in ground grappling, and so forth.

However, those traditional MAs have great amounts of both striking and grappling, so it should have no issue in a MMA competition right?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?

 

[Ironbear24]

So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?

No. That happens to me all the time and I still perform the 100 fists of kenpo and reduce my enemies to dust anyways. I simply just put it back in after the fight is over.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Speaking of Kenpo and cranes, the technique, leaping crane should be re-named scampering yard bird, because all to many people start doing the Ralph Machio, when they should be doing the Larry (Yard) Bird.

 

[Ironbear24]

Speaking of Kenpo and cranes, the technique, leaping crane should be re-named scampering yard bird, because all to many people start doing the Ralph Machio, when they should be doing the Larry (Yard) Bird.

My leaping crane is pitiful. I'm a stocky muscular guy at 5'9 205. My leaping crane is often scoffed at and called the staggering bear.

 

[Touch Of Death]

My leaping crane is pitiful. I'm a stocky muscular guy at 5'9 205. My leaping crane is often scoffed at and called the staggering bear.

Sounds like you are doing it right. The tech is, launch, and front cover to 10:30; Kick directly to the side, as you do this maneuver. That's it. You don't crane out, you don't turn to face, you just kick directly to the side. You don't even have to look, but it is ok if you do.

 

[Ironbear24]

Well it is comforting to know I can do it right even though I am not 150 pounds and can fly through the air like some people can.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well it is comforting to know I can do it right even though I am not 150 pounds and can fly through the air like some people can.

Flight is over rated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have seen that one leg stance in sparring and fighting. It's very common. I had a discussion with some of the student at my school covering some similar concerns about what we practice ans why we don't see it.

With kung fu there are multiple things going on at the same time so in that one leg stance you are seeing multiple techniques that may or may not be done at the same time. In that particular picture there is a leg raise a low block and a what looks like to be a crane technique?
Various Applications
1. The one leg stance can be done to either avoid a sweep, leg check, or to launch a kick. You have seen this technique many times before. As it's usually done without the other hands in position. That one leg stance can also be used to quickly fire off a front snap kick or a front hill kick. I actually showed this in one of my videos when my sparring partner was attacking.

2. The low hand down is a block with the hand directed at knee coming up or if the hand strong enough it could be against a kick before the kick is powerful. This technique of standing on one leg and low blocking is probably best suited for a move that is similar to what I do. I will sweep you so that you lift your leg and as that leg is lifted I'll knee the crap out of you. So this technique would work. If you don't block my knee or interrupt it then I can land that knee into the thigh of the raised leg.

3. The third part looks like a crane technique which we don't have or practice in Jow Ga so I couldn't tell you if what the guy is doing is even correct or not in terms of that hand. In Jow Ga both hands are blocking. There is however a crane technique in Tai Chi that looks similar to what this guy is doing with his form. When you see the hand position like that you can think of it as a defense against a punch. In Tai chi someone would punch at my face with their lead hand I would hook and redirect that punch with my hand shaped like that. In the context of the picture it could be a similar principle where the punch is hook and a heel kick or a snap kick is done shorty after while the punch is being redirected. That's just my best guess but like I said that particular part isn't in my style of fighting where I'll stand on one leg. In my system this technique would be a multiple attacker technique where both hands are blocking, where the leg up is to deal with a possible sweep or knee or just a counter balance while I'm avoiding the sweep.. While the other hand is blocking the other attacker that's on the other side.

The key component that the photo isn't showing is the transition which would help to make more sense of what this guy is doing provided that's a real technique for someone.

In practice standing like this guy does is done for strength building, conditioning, and balance training that will be required to do this in a real fight situation. This is what the application of the form looks like in UFC. Notice the position of the low hand and the knee,

I was referring to the stylized stance in the original picture he posted. The one that looked something like the "Crane Kick" from the original Karate Kid movie. That's what I haven't seen in anything combat-related. As I said in a later post, one-legged positions (especially as transitions) exist all over the place, and are certainly not exclusive to Crane style, or even to CMA.

 

[drop bear]

So, if I pull somebody's eye out and throw it at them, that has a low chance of success?

Depends on if they are fighting back.

 

[drop bear]

It's a very one sided argument here, you can take the same logic and ask what would happen if a bjj guy entered a competition where grappling is not allowed? And all you are permitted to do is strike?

He would be destroyed obviously. No matter what your style is you have to train to prepare yourself for what you are going to be fighting against.

Hopefully after he looses he wont bang on about training for the street and instead learn some striking skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

BTW, its called MMA because the styles that eventually formed the core of it weren't "complete" martial arts. Bjj for example doesn't have much in way of punches and kicks. Wrestling lacks striking completely, and has no ground submissions. Muay Thai is lacking in ground grappling, and so forth.

However, those traditional MAs have great amounts of both striking and grappling, so it should have no issue in a MMA competition right?

Actually, it wasn't called MMA "because the styles...weren't 'complete' martial arts". It was called MMA because it was a Mixed Martial Arts Tournament (as opposed to a Karate Tournament or Judo Tournament). The concept, as I understand it, was to let each use their own style. Of course, some quickly realized they had an advantage if they cross-trained (or were already cross-trained), so then everyone had to cross-train to be competitive.

You have a belief, and I think there's some reasonable evidence to back you up. You just seem to need everyone to agree with you, in spite of the fact that there is significant evidence (from self-defense episodes) to support their belief, as well. I know people from TMA's - both competitive and non-competitive - who have used their skills for self-defense (and related uses, like bouncing and police work), some in life-threatening situations. I don't know as many MMA competitors, so it's not surprising I don't know any who have used it on the street. I certainly don't know any who tried and failed.

Oddly (to me), I had a discussion about this six or seven years ago with a guy who had been a pretty serious MMA competitor for a few years, and he said he'd probably fall back on Greco-Roman wrestling, rather than the techniques he used successfully in his MMA fights. I'm not sure I agree with that choice, but that's his opinion of it, from the inside.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Depends on if they are fighting back.

No, it doesn't. Chance of success is statistical, not situational. The chance of someone fighting back after having their eye pulled out is pretty low, yielding a high chance of success.

Now the chance of success at pulling someone's eye out is pretty low, whether they are fighting back or not, given the structure of the eye and the musculature attached to it.

So, it depends which success you're looking at the chances of.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actually, it wasn't called MMA "because the styles...weren't 'complete' martial arts". It was called MMA because it was a Mixed Martial Arts Tournament (as opposed to a Karate Tournament or Judo Tournament). The concept, as I understand it, was to let each use their own style. Of course, some quickly realized they had an advantage if they cross-trained (or were already cross-trained), so then everyone had to cross-train to be competitive.

You have a belief, and I think there's some reasonable evidence to back you up. You just seem to need everyone to agree with you, in spite of the fact that there is significant evidence (from self-defense episodes) to support their belief, as well. I know people from TMA's - both competitive and non-competitive - who have used their skills for self-defense (and related uses, like bouncing and police work), some in life-threatening situations. I don't know as many MMA competitors, so it's not surprising I don't know any who have used it on the street. I certainly don't know any who tried and failed.

Oddly (to me), I had a discussion about this six or seven years ago with a guy who had been a pretty serious MMA competitor for a few years, and he said he'd probably fall back on Greco-Roman wrestling, rather than the techniques he used successfully in his MMA fights. I'm not sure I agree with that choice, but that's his opinion of it, from the inside.

That is very natural, in fact I think Greco-Roman wrestling was invented because, people don't like to get hit, and when it hits the fan, they can stop the pain, by simply moving in.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, it doesn't. Chance of success is statistical, not situational. The chance of someone fighting back after having their eye pulled out is pretty low, yielding a high chance of success.

Now the chance of success at pulling someone's eye out is pretty low, whether they are fighting back or not, given the structure of the eye and the musculature attached to it.

So, it depends which success you're looking at the chances of.

Well, since it is attached, and all, you just couldn't go very far, before throwing it back.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is very natural, in fact I think Greco-Roman wrestling was invented because, people don't like to get hit, and when it hits the fan, they can stop the pain, by simply moving in.

Sounds interesting. I know nothing of it - maybe time for a new bit of research. Thanks!

 

[Ironbear24]

Hopefully after he looses he wont bang on about training for the street and instead learn some striking skills.

Sadly this is pretty common.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was referring to the stylized stance in the original picture he posted. The one that looked something like the "Crane Kick" from the original Karate Kid movie. That's what I haven't seen in anything combat-related. As I said in a later post, one-legged positions (especially as transitions) exist all over the place, and are certainly not exclusive to Crane style, or even to CMA.

. Yes I know which picture. That's where people get confused about what kung fu looks likes. When you see it like that you are seeing 3 different applications being trained at the same time. It doesn't mean that they are all done at the same time.

Keep in mind that one kung fu technique may have 2 or more different applications which either use all parts of a techniques or only part of the techniques or changes the order in which the technique is done in the form. This is what what is meant in kung fu when they say "don't fight with the form"

When I fight using kung fu, I don't fight with the form, I fight with the technique. Just because Step 2 comes after Step 1 in the form doesn't mean it's going to follow the same order in the fight. I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Don't expect kung fu to look like what we see in the movies or snapshots of kung fu poses. That way the next time someone say "why don't we see stuff like this picture" then you'll be able to take a look at the parts of what is in that picture and determine if multiple techniques are being trained at the same time or if it actually a combination attack, like a 1-2 jab.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

. Yes I know which picture. That's where people get confused about what kung fu looks likes. When you see it like that you are seeing 3 different applications being trained at the same time. It doesn't mean that they are all done at the same time.

Keep in mind that one kung fu technique may have 2 or more different applications which either use all parts of a techniques or only part of the techniques or changes the order in which the technique is done in the form. This is what what is meant in kung fu when they say "don't fight with the form"

When I fight using kung fu, I don't fight with the form, I fight with the technique. Just because Step 2 comes after Step 1 in the form doesn't mean it's going to follow the same order in the fight. I don't know how to explain it any better than this. Don't expect kung fu to look like what we see in the movies or snapshots of kung fu poses. That way the next time someone say "why don't we see stuff like this picture" then you'll be able to take a look at the parts of what is in that picture and determine if multiple techniques are being trained at the same time or if it actually a combination attack, like a 1-2 jab.

We have some similar issues with the Classical Techniques in NGA - they are actually kata, and when we get into the applications, things can look and work very differently.