Sparring

[Ironbear24]

So were you wrong when you said that no one would perform this stance in a fight?

Additionally, why wouldn't we see these types of stances in MMA?

You can modify the eye poke into a punch.

And when you do that it will then be simply a punch and people will not identify it as Chinese martial art.

Rio heroes is in Brazil. I doubt people want to fly all the way to Brazil for that, let alone they probably never heard of it. I know I haven't until now.

 

[Hanzou]

You won't see any good practitioner have his hands on his hips while blocking a kick with his or her shin as you saw in the video. And I said you won't see Katanot that stance in combat. I was talking about the picture you posted originally with that guy trying to imitate some crouching tiger hidden dragon jumbo.

If you want to split hairs, yes you can see crane in fighting if according to you crane is simply lifting up one leg in a front position.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that the original stance I posted has direct combat applications and is supposed to be used for fighting.

You told me that those stances aren't for fighting, but for improving your "qigong". So which is it? Either these guys are right and that stance is a perfectly legitimate fighting stance that can be used for fighting purposes, or you're right and that stance is simply for exercising, and all those guys who say it has a combat application are uninformed.

And when you do that it will then be simply a punch and people will not identify it as Chinese martial art.

Nah, check out the crane beak block right before the eye poke counter;



People will definitely recognize that as CMA.

 

[Azulx]

You won't see any good practitioner have his hands on his hips while blocking a kick with his or her shin as you saw in the video. And I said you won't see Katanot that stance in combat. I was talking about the picture you posted originally with that guy trying to imitate some crouching tiger hidden dragon jumbo.

If you want to split hairs, yes you can see crane in fighting if according to you crane is simply lifting up one leg in a front position.

I can't seem to find the initial debate of what is being discussed between the 13 pages of post. Is the topi,c the effectiveness of the crane stance in a fight?

 

[Ironbear24]

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that the original stance I posted has direct combat applications and is supposed to be used for fighting.

You told me that those stances aren't for fighting, but for improving your "qigong". So which is it? Either these guys are right and that stance is a perfectly legitimate fighting stance that can be used for fighting purposes, or you're right and that stance is simply for exercising, and all those guys who say it has a combat application are uninformed.

I already answered you. Yes it can be but not in the way you see it in your original pic you posted. If you really want to know about crane you are better off asking a Chinese martial artist. My fighting style is kenpo and judo and neither of them are Chinese arts, kenpo did originate from china but we have modified crane and the other forms so much that it is a different art now.

 

[Ironbear24]

I can't seem to find the initial debate of what is being discussed between the 13 pages of post. Is the topi,c the effectiveness of the crane stance in a fight?

Originally the post is about the importance of sparring in martial arts training. Somehow it became another MMA vs TMA thread. There really should be no divide here in the first place as we are both practically identical.

 

[Ironbear24]

Hanzou what is funny about previous post? I am just being honest here and I can only speak using my own experience. My knowledge of Chinese martial arts is not the greatest as it comes from kenpo which is not a Chinese martial art. I have been around Chinese martial arts and that is about it.

 

[Azulx]

I already answered you. Yes it can be but not in the way you see it in your original pic you posted. If you really want to know about crane you are better off asking a Chinese martial artist. My fighting style is kenpo and judo and neither of them are Chinese arts, kenpo did originate from china but we have modified crane and the other forms so much that it is a different art now.

I don't know if y'all or debating the effectiveness of the crane in sport fighting or street fighting. My MA is Taekwon-Do from my perspective this is how I feel about the crane. In my first collegiate karate sparring tournament, in my semi-final match, I was one point away from winning. Now I am not aware of the chinese traditional crane stance, but we do use the one leg stance where the other leg is in the air chambered for a front kick. As I approached my opponent I raised my leg and left it locked in the one-leg stance ( which is what we call it). It became difficult for my opponent to strike my body , because my chambered leg was blocking, as far as my hand placement it remained in our traditional sparring stance, one hand by the ear, the other right under the eye . With the chambered leg I transitioned it into a twisting kick which landed right on my opponents chin. In point sparring I found that the one leg stance was practical and worked. It was different, and not everyone is used to it.

Now I have never been in a street fight or a fight where I found that my life was in danger. If I ever do come across this situation, the crane stance really wouldn't be one of my go-to techniques. Simply because A, it's not something we train in enough to where I would feel comfortable enough to use it in a life or death situation. B, I would do my best to stay away from leaving my feet or losing balance in a fight, leading to C, if I get my leg caught or got taken down as A TaeKwon-Do practitioner I would be at a huge disadvantage as I am not trained in ground fighting. This is simply my opinion, and I am sure there are people out there who have a killer crane stance, I just personally don't and wouldn't use it in a street fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou what is funny about previous post? I am just being honest here and I can only speak using my own experience. My knowledge of Chinese martial arts is not the greatest as it comes from kenpo which is not a Chinese martial art. I have been around Chinese martial arts and that is about it.

It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.

 

[Ironbear24]

It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.

It is not backtracking though. The original picture was much different from the video you posted. You posted a pic of an akward looking guy doing something straight out of an old dubbed Kung fu theatre movie.

I posted to it saying that seems like a more kata stance as it looked very theatrical and silly.

Then you posted a video after that of a guy doing crane in an entirely different manner which still seemed silly for combat application as his hands are at his hips and his legs are shaking as he is in the stance.

So then I said yeah you can use it for combat BUT it will not be done that way with your hands at your hips because that leaves your face wide open along with your center line above the waist. I added to it that it is a transitional stance as let's be honest. Do you think it is going to be a fighting stance?

No way it will be. It is going to be done do block kicks from a side stance as shown in the video or done to begin a front kick or some form of jumping front kick.

 

[Hanzou]

It is not backtracking though. The original picture was much different from the video you posted. You posted a pic of an akward looking guy doing something straight out of an old dubbed Kung fu theatre movie.

I posted to it saying that seems like a more kata stance as it looked very theatrical and silly.

Then you posted a video after that of a guy doing crane in an entirely different manner which still seemed silly for combat application as his hands are at his hips and his legs are shaking as he is in the stance.

Yeah, the guy had a problem keeping his leg up, but that wasn't the point. The only difference between the picture I posted and the video were the placement of the hands. The fighting application was completely based on the leg placement (sweep, kick block, kick), so where the hands were didn't really matter.

So then I said yeah you can use it for combat BUT it will not be done that way with your hands at your hips because that leaves your face wide open along with your center line above the waist. I added to it that it is a transitional stance as let's be honest. Do you think it is going to be a fighting stance?

No way it will be. It is going to be done do block kicks from a side stance as shown in the video or done to begin a front kick or some form of jumping front kick.

Well in the last vid I posted you had those two guys outside showing an application for the hands as well. The lower hand was used to block and grab the wrist, while the other hand was used to block a counter punch. Finally, the raised leg was used to kick the guy. Again, a general application utilizing the basic stance shown.

The question is why aren't we seeing any of those lovely stances and techniques in NHB/MMA fights? The majority of it is perfectly legal.

 

[Ironbear24]

The other video I have not seen because you must have edited it into your post after I responded. I'll look at it, from what I know of chinese martial arts, which is not the best mind you. Many of them are very humble and don't wish to no partake in tournaments. I honestly despise this attitude as it can only improve an individual as a martial artist but that is how many of them are.

I don't believe it can't work in mma. It works everywhere else so I don't see why not.

 

[Ironbear24]

Hanzou. I think you will find this interesting, cung le, a Chinese fighter who practices sanshou. Apparently he is doing well in the mma scene. Unfortunately for most Chinese martial arts and many more striking styles in general there was no training to defend against grappling simply because it was never common place.

Until it became more common in the mid 90's they didn't began implementing it into their training. This could be why you aren't seeing many Chinese styles because of the stubborness to not implement new stuff into their training regiment. Not all of them are lke this but there are plenty.

 

[FriedRice]

I'll argue one adjustment to that: getting hit hard and often in the head is apart from Self Defense training. It delivers the exact things we're working to avoid: potential long-term injury. Taking an occasional reasonably hard shot to the head can help prepare mentally and emotionally. Getting hit more often than that, and with full force, is harmful even with head gear or boxing gloves.

It's a question of priorities. If I want to be the best I can possibly be, I should start training as early as I can, train as often as I can, and train as hard as I can. Then, for a while (until the injuries catch up, if I've received any), I'll be the best I can be. For most of us training for SD, we need to be reasonably prepared for the most likely and most common attacks, plus whatever preparedness we can gain for the less-likely ones.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. Like some old lady with Osteoporosis is not going to be able to take full shots to the face and body on a regular basis just so she can get really good at Self Defense. My main point is that the highest level of MA training is to train as a fighter, which will translate into SD when such situation arises...with the exception of gun disarming, training....which Fighter's training, in general, would lack....while gun disarming in itself, is highly risky to begin with and even more rare than H2H attacks/confrontations.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There was no combat here.

Agreed. There was also no use of the kata, itself. He was explaining how a part of a stance, reinforced in kata, can find application in combat. I think most arts that have kata do at least this - they use the movements learned in kata to reinforce the combat training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So were you wrong when you said that no one would perform this stance in a fight?

Additionally, why wouldn't we see these types of stances in MMA?

Since what was shown in the video was actually just variations of why you might raise a leg, all of those are applicable. We've seen front kicks (one leg raised). We've seen leg checks (one leg raised). If anyone was trying to sweep legs (which I don't recall seeing in a while), we'd probably see some people raising a leg to avoid those, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can modify the eye poke into a punch.

That changes the entire shape and dynamic of the movement.

As for clawing, while the UFC doesn't allow it, there are plenty of MMA outfits that do. Rio heroes being the biggest one.

Or again, you can modify the clawing into a punch or something else.

Again, altering the nature of the movement. You're essentially asking why people aren't using Tiger and Crane movements to do things they aren't good for. Would you use your side kick to do a front kick? I'm not debating the effectiveness of these techniques for the street (I don't know the principles behind them, and haven't tested them), but simply saying "you could adapt it to a punch" assumes that movement is almost a punch.

No thoughts on the palm strike to the chest that supposedly sent that kid flying? That's perfectly legal in MMA.

That's not a palm heel of the sort I (and maybe you) am used to. I was taught the palm heel as a striking force (like a typical straight punch or backfist). My understanding is that many strikes in CMA use a driving force, more like a really hard shove. Those will shove someone back if they aren't really well rooted. I can do similar things in some of my techniques, assuming I find someone who has created that opening. If they don't create that opening, you just don't use that particular aspect of the technique. Again, I can't speak to the effectiveness of the strike, but I do know (from having felt it) that even a fairly slow palm heel from at least some CMA's can have tremendous driving force - far more than mine have.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've also never seen that particular stance in any of the various kung fu (any style) sparring videos I've watched. Admittedly, I've not watched all of them, but if it were common, I'd expect to have seen it by now. They don't use it frequently for sparring amongst themselves, so why expect it with others?

You have seen that one leg stance in sparring and fighting. It's very common. I had a discussion with some of the student at my school covering some similar concerns about what we practice ans why we don't see it.

With kung fu there are multiple things going on at the same time so in that one leg stance you are seeing multiple techniques that may or may not be done at the same time. In that particular picture there is a leg raise a low block and a what looks like to be a crane technique?
Various Applications
1. The one leg stance can be done to either avoid a sweep, leg check, or to launch a kick. You have seen this technique many times before. As it's usually done without the other hands in position. That one leg stance can also be used to quickly fire off a front snap kick or a front hill kick. I actually showed this in one of my videos when my sparring partner was attacking.

2. The low hand down is a block with the hand directed at knee coming up or if the hand strong enough it could be against a kick before the kick is powerful. This technique of standing on one leg and low blocking is probably best suited for a move that is similar to what I do. I will sweep you so that you lift your leg and as that leg is lifted I'll knee the crap out of you. So this technique would work. If you don't block my knee or interrupt it then I can land that knee into the thigh of the raised leg.

3. The third part looks like a crane technique which we don't have or practice in Jow Ga so I couldn't tell you if what the guy is doing is even correct or not in terms of that hand. In Jow Ga both hands are blocking. There is however a crane technique in Tai Chi that looks similar to what this guy is doing with his form. When you see the hand position like that you can think of it as a defense against a punch. In Tai chi someone would punch at my face with their lead hand I would hook and redirect that punch with my hand shaped like that. In the context of the picture it could be a similar principle where the punch is hook and a heel kick or a snap kick is done shorty after while the punch is being redirected. That's just my best guess but like I said that particular part isn't in my style of fighting where I'll stand on one leg. In my system this technique would be a multiple attacker technique where both hands are blocking, where the leg up is to deal with a possible sweep or knee or just a counter balance while I'm avoiding the sweep.. While the other hand is blocking the other attacker that's on the other side.

The key component that the photo isn't showing is the transition which would help to make more sense of what this guy is doing provided that's a real technique for someone.

In practice standing like this guy does is done for strength building, conditioning, and balance training that will be required to do this in a real fight situation. This is what the application of the form looks like in UFC. Notice the position of the low hand and the knee,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's funny because originally you said that that particular stance was for kata only. Now you're saying that it can be used for fighting. Then you said that the applications I showed weren't the same as the original stance, but in fact they were. So yeah, I find the backtracking pretty funny.

You originally posted a stylized version of that stance. Go back to the original image you posted, and show where anything OTHER THAN the leg up is actually in the video you posted later. That stylized stance - if it exists - would not likely be a fighting stance, but would still have application for fighting.

What I think Ironbear said was that many kata were for qigong development, not for fighting. That doesn't mean that movements in them aren't also in the fighting portions of the art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is probably a stance that you fluidly transition into throughout the fight I guess. Similar to front stance and horse stance and corkscrew stance in kenpo. If that is the case then yes this stance can be used in combat. Though I seriously doubt he is going to have his hands on his hips during the fight.

Kung Fu training of forms are never straight forward to someone looking on the outside. Once the application is understood then the training of that application becomes clearer. It's not just just the technique that is being trained, it's the muscles, the tendons, the response time, the balance and the ability to root on one leg that has to be trained as well. In kung fu as well as many other martial arts, "The tree grows from the roots." Using a technique with a weak root or absence of conditioning will = a failed and ineffective deployment of a technique.

That's why many martial artist will always recommend that a person learns under a teacher because there is so much more going on than what our eyes see. The teacher helps bring understanding of it and practice helps the student to be good at it. Once you understanding it, then you'll begin to see it more in more when people fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou. I think you will find this interesting, cung le, a Chinese fighter who practices sanshou. Apparently he is doing well in the mma scene. Unfortunately for most Chinese martial arts and many more striking styles in general there was no training to defend against grappling simply because it was never common place.

Until it became more common in the mid 90's they didn't began implementing it into their training. This could be why you aren't seeing many Chinese styles because of the stubborness to not implement new stuff into their training regiment. Not all of them are lke this but there are plenty.

I've known about Cung Le for quite some time. His success in MMA isn't surprising since Sanshou is pretty much Chinese MMA with hand techniques from western boxing, kicks from Kung fu and Muay Thai, and takedowns from Chinese wrestling.

They're pretty weak against grappling though, since they have no ground game. Cung Le actually had to cross-train in Bjj in order to prepare himself for the UFC.