Sparring with A kyouskhosin Karate guy

dnovice

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I've been sparring with a kyoukoshin karate guy under kyoukoshin rules. I'm having a few problems. 1) I'm not used to not striking to the head, 2) he keeps coming forward regardless of the punches I throw.

If you are not aware of kyoukoshin rules you cann't punch to the head but you can kick to the head.

My initial solution to the above was front kick to his stomach or front leg. It worked for a bit, but i became too predicatable so he'd grab my leg. Also, I'd let him come in and really cock back my punch for added power and plow his side or stomach.

Any other suggestions guys??? Is there anywhere in particular spot I can punch on the body (not necessarily a leverage spot) that hurts a lot. Nothing physically damaging since this is just a sparring session.
 

matsu

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ok from a complete numpty newbie point of view.... are you allowing him to stay in his range and not yours?#
most karate are point scoring techniques-jump in bang bang and out?(sorry karatekas) so surely we want to keep the gap closed so we are in tight with our short multi strikes and not on the end of his big kicks and punches?
i,m always being taught once i,m in contact..... STICK!
keep shutting him down?
not sure if thats of any use??
matsu
 

mook jong man

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From my experience of sparring with people from other styles it is a waste of time unless you are allowed to do your thing which is to hit them in the head.

If you pull the strikes back from their head they tend to not acknowledge the strike and just carry on with what ever they were doing like it never happened . Sometimes it is because they didn't actually see the strike , because they are not used to the speed of Wing Chun punches.

Human eyes have a bit of a hard time picking up fast movement coming directly at them , which is another reason why we punch this way . Our eyes were primarily designed to be surveying the savannah for predators or prey in a side to side scanning movement. Anyway thats enough of the David Attenborough talk.

Everything Matsu said was spot on , I would just add that I think you may get into a habit of not protecting your head from punches which is not realistic because in the street they are generally going to attack with a flurry of windmill punches trying to knock your block off.

You can keep doing what you are doing with your mate if you enjoy it , but I think that to get the most out of your training you should both invest in some head gear ( the type with a plastic cage over the face ) , some mouth guards , some groin guards , TKD chest protectors , some shin pads and some light bag gloves or sparring gloves.

With all this stuff on you can train pretty realistically , but that doesn't mean it is a licence to smash each others heads in .

I did this type of training and my brain is still intact , truth be known I probably lost more brain cells from alcohol and a certain green herb in my younger days.

It just takes commonsense and a regard for safety , before we started my mate and I would give each other a couple of free shots in the face to determine what level of force we both were happy in taking . You should not train like this all the time but it certainly should be a regular part of your training.

In the course of the sparring we would try to not go beyond this level of force , occasionally you would get a rush of blood and retaliate with a punch that was harder than what you meant , but it was still well with in the realms of safety.

Now for tactics , the reason he is grabbing your leg is because of the artificial way you are sparring , he doesn't have to worry about using his hands to protect his head from punches so he can afford to use them to grab your leg.

Counters: If he grabs your leg , keep the angle in your grabbed leg , transfer all your weight down on to the captured leg and drop it to the floor , this means he will be carrying your whole body weight in his hands this will pull him down into range for a Chum Kiu uppercut to the face or elbow etc.

Alternatively capture his neck and put him in a Guillotine choke.
Another thing is don't kick so high for him to grab , aim a low heel kick at his shin or kneecap everytime he advances . The low heel kick and the chain punching are your bread and butter defences and attacks .

Are you telegraphing your kick? Or is the kick retracting too slowly?
Make sure the kick is whipped out and back into your stance , practice your kicking in front of the mirror alternating each side , try to minimise the shoulder movement , that is probably how he is reading your kick.

Don't cock your fist back for power , you might have a powerful strike , but you are compromising your defence , keep your hands out in front of you in the correct angles.

If you want to ramp up the realism a bit have another friend attack you with a training knife at random from the side , as you are busy sparring the other bloke. Because that is exactly the type of thing that happens in the real world.

Don't train by Kyokushin rules or any other rules for that matter , train for what you will face on the street which is no rules .
Train hard and realistic , but train safe.
 

seasoned

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When ever you bring you game to someone else's party, it never is favorable. He is at home with what he is doing, where you are limited. These guys like to bang, and can take shots to the body, so friend or no friend, you put yourself in a bad situation. Good luck.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi,

I see from your profile that your art is Wing Chun, is there a reason you're sparring a Kyokushin practitioner? Is it just working out with a friend, or are you attempting to gain a little knowledge outside of your usual experience?

As Seasoned said, taking on someone on their home turf can be a risky thing to do... in fact, our primary tactic is to take any opponent out of their area of expertise or comfort asap (ie if they are a grappler, hit them or kick them, if they prefer kicks, strike or grapple etc). The concept is simple: if they are experienced and confident at one thing, odds are that they have a significant advantage over you (if you are less experienced or confident). So move them to a place where you are more confident and experienced than they are, and you win back your advantage.

If you are attempting to test yourself and your art against his, then my advice is to ignore his rules, and fight by your own. If that includes head strikes, use them. He will not be used to defending against them, and will get hit (lose), although he will eventually get used to it and tighten his defence (which will only serve him better in the long run, really).

By being aware of his rules (limitations) as well as your own tactical methods, you will find that your success will be greater than trying to fight under the opponents restrictions. Just realise that if you follow this path, your friend may not immediately recognise the benefit they can gain, and may tell you you're cheating, or not being fair. This shouldn't matter. They will either get better and understand, or you will stop sparring together.
 

wushuguy

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You can try sticking, to help them "play your game"
try to control the situation, make him plat your level.
Most other styles hate sticking and having their arms trapped up.
Like said before, don't cock back the first strike.

One thing I like to do when sparring, is to bait the opponent. Don't be so aggressive right away, let him think he has got you, you can even "screw up" your fighting stance, so as soon as he rushes in, you can trap his arms up and get your clear shot.

Or you can taunt him, for example, you can use jut sau, but change the hand position to index finger and thumb make "L" shape. after you successfully redirect his strikes a few times, and perhaps had a few good counter strikes, then as some young teens do, put it on your forehead and taunt the guy. and continue to use your modified technique every once in a while.
If allowed to speak during the match, you can also taunt him by calling out your motions. Kinda funny, but it works. For example you can cry out, "if you don't like my bong sau, then fak u" When I was younger my friends and I sparred with others often and this is what we did.

Not punching to the head should be ok, because this is wing chun you can aim for anything on the center line!

If trapping isn't allowed, you can use "sloppy punches" to punch his punch out of the way and still control his movements so you can get your shots in.
As for kicking, unless you're good at it, better keep it defensive.

You mention that he keeps coming forward even though you punch. Are you landing the punches, perhaps he is trying to intimidate you, or is trapping/grappling part of their style?

Don't be intimidated by someone closing on you, use your footwork to keep him off your centerline, but keep your angles of attack open. If allowed to strike the ribs or side of the body, might as well roll around him when he comes forward and strike there. If throwing or take down is allowed, when he rushes you, you can do a 3 angle walk around and turn around to his back side (so now he is standing with his back to you), grab both his shoulders and pull him straight down and drop him. That's a difficult thing to do, have to be fast, but if you can pull it off, it will get him psychologically, then he'll be easier for you to handle later.
 
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dnovice

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ok from a complete numpty newbie point of view.... are you allowing him to stay in his range and not yours?#
most karate are point scoring techniques-jump in bang bang and out?(sorry karatekas) so surely we want to keep the gap closed so we are in tight with our short multi strikes and not on the end of his big kicks and punches?
i,m always being taught once i,m in contact..... STICK!
keep shutting him down?
not sure if thats of any use??
matsu

Hi Matsu,

I try to stay out of range the range of his kicks or punches. Then I throw punches and kicks from this distance for a while and finally I fake and blitz him by sticking to him. At the moment, the philosophy I'm working with is once I'm in I finish him off (and this should take seconds) but if I can't finish him of I back of and do it a again. lol. I don't like trading punches or being predictable.

So you can visualize kyoukoshin rules here is a clip of a Wing chun guy fighting a karate guy under Kyoukoshin rules.
 
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dnovice

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I think Kyokushin is different from what you're thinking of.

Hi Oxy,

you are right. In kyokushin karate (at least from what I have experienced and seen on "gulp" Youtube) they like you close so they can kick you and punch you. Also, they are very conditioned to taking body shots.
 
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dnovice

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Hi Mook jong man,


If you pull the strikes back from their head they tend to not acknowledge the strike and just carry on with what ever they were doing like it never happened . Sometimes it is because they didn't actually see the strike , because they are not used to the speed of Wing Chun punches.

Yes, this happens a lot when I point spar with another friend, who doesn't have protective equipment.

Everything Matsu said was spot on , I would just add that I think you may get into a habit of not protecting your head from punches which is not realistic because in the street they are generally going to attack with a flurry of windmill punches trying to knock your block off.

This is very true. Its something I'm keeping in the back of my mind. I always keep my arms up at my head level.

You can keep doing what you are doing with your mate if you enjoy it , but I think that to get the most out of your training you should both invest in some head gear ( the type with a plastic cage over the face ) , some mouth guards , some groin guards , TKD chest protectors , some shin pads and some light bag gloves or sparring gloves.

We use protective gear. However, I haven't used my head gear yet.



I did this type of training and my brain is still intact
hahaha. good thing right.



It just takes commonsense and a regard for safety , before we started my mate and I would give each other a couple of free shots in the face to determine what level of force we both were happy in taking . You should not train like this all the time but it certainly should be a regular part of your training.

Right now, I'm trying to work on focusing on places other than the head so I don't truly mind sparring under kyoukoshin rules. Eventually, we'll add punches to the head, which I'm certain will make him hesitate before brazenly steping in.


Now for tactics , the reason he is grabbing your leg is because of the artificial way you are sparring , he doesn't have to worry about using his hands to protect his head from punches so he can afford to use them to grab your leg.

I agree. The more things you have to worry about the harder it is to pull of a grab.

Counters: If he grabs your leg , keep the angle in your grabbed leg , transfer all your weight down on to the captured leg and drop it to the floor , this means he will be carrying your whole body weight in his hands this will pull him down into range for a Chum Kiu uppercut to the face or elbow etc.

nice. I'll try that without the face shot. Then once we start allowing punches to the face I'll start doing this.

Alternatively capture his neck and put him in a Guillotine choke.

I like this.


Are you telegraphing your kick? Or is the kick retracting too slowly?

I don't think I'm telegraphing my kick, although I could be. I try to feint with my hand or other leg before launching out my kick.

Make sure the kick is whipped out and back into your stance , practice your kicking in front of the mirror alternating each side , try to minimise the shoulder movement , that is probably how he is reading your kick.

I was using it more as a push back kick so I don't retract it too fast.

Don't cock your fist back for power , you might have a powerful strike , but you are compromising your defence , keep your hands out in front of you in the correct angles.

True. thanks.

If you want to ramp up the realism a bit have another friend attack you with a training knife at random from the side , as you are busy sparring the other bloke. Because that is exactly the type of thing that happens in the real world.

I like this especially having someone step in randomly with a weapon. It teaches awareness. However, I do not think I'm at that level yet. I polish my one man tactics first. Then, I'll start sparring multiple partners.

Don't train by Kyokushin rules or any other rules for that matter , train for what you will face on the street which is no rules .
I have a habit of simply taking head shots and neglecting attacking the body. I am okay with fighting under kyoukoshin rules for now so that I make it a habit to also work the body. Eventually, we move to allowing head shots with both hands and legs.
Train hard and realistic , but train safe.

Thank you.
 
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dnovice

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Hello Chris,

Hi,

I see from your profile that your art is Wing Chun, is there a reason you're sparring a Kyokushin practitioner?

I have only learned wing chun formally, no other martial art. Although I do know some BJJ, boxing etc moves.

Is it just working out with a friend, or are you attempting to gain a little knowledge outside of your usual experience?
It is just working out with a friend to allow us both to grow as fighters.

As Seasoned said, taking on someone on their home turf can be a risky thing to do... in fact, our primary tactic is to take any opponent out of their area of expertise or comfort asap (ie if they are a grappler, hit them or kick them, if they prefer kicks, strike or grapple etc). The concept is simple: if they are experienced and confident at one thing, odds are that they have a significant advantage over you (if you are less experienced or confident). So move them to a place where you are more confident and experienced than they are, and you win back your advantage.

This is very true. I'm doing it to learn to work the body.

If you are attempting to test yourself and your art against his,

This is a not a my art is better than yours spar. I'm just trying to learn to handle different scenarios, and to work on my weaknesses. Whenever I do see an opening for a head shot I take note of it in my mind. In a real fight, I will use it.
 

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So you can visualize kyoukoshin rules here is a clip of a Wing chun guy fighting a karate guy under Kyoukoshin rules.

Boy that looked ridiculous. With the "no head shot rule" the Kyoukushin fighter bent forward, dropped his guard and led with his head, totally unprotected.

I did notice that the Chunner tried a neck grab and knee strike to some good effect, but he didn't repeat this often. Was this disallowed too?

If you want to try playing this game, I would suggest being very aggressive. Don't hang back, make an opening and press forward. Try to unbalance him with a hard kick to the legs, blitz inside with chain punches to the chest, then grab the back of his neck and give repeated "kwai Jarn" or diagonal hacking elbow strikes to his collar bone and chest. Or grab his neck with both hands, Muay Thai style, and have at him in the gut with your knees. Both of these approaches are simple and, as you requested in your first post, they hurt a lot.

Then, to be fair, invite him to play your game for a while. :)
 
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dnovice

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Hello Wushuguy,
You can try sticking, to help them "play your game"

I found blitzing and then sticking to him to be very effective especially when coupled with trapping.
try to control the situation, make him plat your level.
I try to make it as unpredictable as possible by changing ranges. When I get into the wing chun range, it is very sudden and overwhelming (at least thats what I'm working on.) I keep going until he sorta curls up and gives me his side, which is when I move to his side to get out of reach of both of his hands. I then lay it on him, without any head shots.

Most other styles hate sticking and having their arms trapped up.

I like trapping so long as his hands are low and around his chest area, and within an easy reach.


One thing I like to do when sparring, is to bait the opponent. Don't be so aggressive right away, let him think he has got you, you can even "screw up" your fighting stance, so as soon as he rushes in, you can trap his arms up and get your clear shot.
haha. you fight like genki sudo, eh. I'd do that in a real fight not in our sparring session though.





If trapping isn't allowed, you can use "sloppy punches" to punch his punch out of the way and still control his movements so you can get your shots in.
Trapping is allowed.

As for kicking, unless you're good at it, better keep it defensive.

I'm pretty ok with kicks. I use then mainly to maintain distance and to serve out punishment while staying on the outside, ie. before I make it to the wing chun range.

You mention that he keeps coming forward even though you punch. Are you landing the punches, perhaps he is trying to intimidate you, or is trapping/grappling part of their style?
Hmm. I am landing my punches and do stop him here and there. Still, because of his background in kyoukoshin his body is very conditioned to taking hits so sloppy punches don't work. I try to throw precise punches. Throwing in the occasional cocked back punch makes him lean forward to protect his stomach leaving his side open and him kinda flat footed (exactly what I want.) But this happens sparingly. I want to be able to do it over and over.
Don't be intimidated by someone closing on you, use your footwork to keep him off your centerline, but keep your angles of attack open. If allowed to strike the ribs or side of the body, might as well roll around him when he comes forward and strike there. If throwing or take down is allowed, when he rushes you, you can do a 3 angle walk around and turn around to his back side (so now he is standing with his back to you), grab both his shoulders and pull him straight down and drop him. That's a difficult thing to do, have to be fast, but if you can pull it off, it will get him psychologically, then he'll be easier for you to handle later.

Thanks chris.
 

wushuguy

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Since its you and your friend that are training just to get better, I like geezer suggestion, invite him to play by wing chun rules, to see how he would fare. and why not try relaxing the rules a bit once in a while or try to find a mutually agreed as realistic as possible set, no need to be too rigid because always practicing according to a set of sparring rules, you can develop bad habits like leaving your head out because it's an off limits target.
 

mook jong man

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I think you should practice more Chi sau sparring , with just aiming strikes at the body . Work on punches and palm strikes to the chest , and palm strikes to the sides of the ribcage.

Generally speaking if you can get these targets against a Wing Chun guy with good Chi sau then you should be able to penetrate the defences of most people .
And if you can get to the chest easily enough it means you can also get to the head.
But I don't know your situation whether you have anyone that you can do Chi sau sparring with.
 

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Hi Matsu,

I try to stay out of range the range of his kicks or punches. Then I throw punches and kicks from this distance for a while and finally I fake and blitz him by sticking to him. At the moment, the philosophy I'm working with is once I'm in I finish him off (and this should take seconds) but if I can't finish him of I back of and do it a again. lol. I don't like trading punches or being predictable.

So you can visualize kyoukoshin rules here is a clip of a Wing chun guy fighting a karate guy under Kyoukoshin rules.

the wing chun guy didnt use any wing chun
 

mook jong man

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If that was a Wing Chun guy which I highly doubt then he needs to give himself a triple uppercut and end it all now .

Because obviously he has failed to grasp even the most basic of Wing Chun concepts . :duh:
 

matsu

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that was wing chun?..... not from where i come from, and i,m still crap!!

mate, apart from my post, it looks like this forum has turned up some great advice yet again!......altho i feel good that mook esp said i was right YAY!!!!! woop woop!!
looking from that clip i would take his elbow and turn so far round i could batter him from the side or even better behind!
matsu
 

Chris Parker

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Thanks chris.

Hi dnovice,

Never want to steal someone else's credit, the thanks go to Wushuguy here...

But while I'm here, a couple of things. A few times now you have mentioned that you are seeing things and not acting, but "in a real fight I would". My recommendation is to act in training as you would in a fight, otherwise all you are doing is training yourself to see and not act. You may find youself in a situation where you get hit, and find youself thinking "his head's open", and just watching it while you keep getting hit. Not the best situation, and avoidable if you approach things a little differently.

You also said that this is basically an exercise to improve both of you as fighters, so let's take this opportunity to improve both of you. By using your art fully (strikes to the head), you will force your friend to improve his defence against unfamiliar attacks, as well as improving your ability to take the harder shots that Kyokushin practitioners tend to prefer.
 
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dnovice

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the wing chun guy didnt use any wing chun

If that was a Wing Chun guy which I highly doubt then he needs to give himself a triple uppercut and end it all now .

Because obviously he has failed to grasp even the most basic of Wing Chun concepts . :duh:

Haha. yeah its amazing how many people can't really apply their wing chun.:soapbox:
 

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