Wing Chun sparring basics

[geezer]

Ok, I said get offline, create an angle and attack. But you can also occupy the center line and "steal it", or you can go from the outside in and "cut" his punches out. It's not very easy to do for a beginner, but hell, we don't have nothin but time, so why not try it

It's kinda like the old axiom, "No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time". If you occupy the centerline, your opponent can't. When your opponent charges in with chain punches, his momentum and size (I believe you said that you were of smaller stature than many of your classmates) will make it hard to oppose him straight on. So use a bit of a sidestep and counter deflecting punch against punch, wedging in to take control of his center. Get your opponent turned and keep up the forward pressure.

Here is a drill I found on Youtube that is a little simpler than the one Mook showed back in post 17. In this version, they just use punch to punch to deflect oncoming chain punches. Notice that they practice both inside and outside gates, and it can be practiced on the same side (right vs. left) or across (right vs. right) It can be done slowly, to concentrate on position and not clashing arms or sped up, like working a speed bag. With good forward pressure, it can be a very aggressive way to counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERsLaXqGHPI&list=PL3C8A19CEBF5087AC

Incidentally, these guys are not from the organization I belong to, but we do have a common lineage. In my group, we typically begin training with a pak-punch or jut-punch pattern, and later go to this punch to punch pattern since there can be a tendency to use too much force rather than deflection when you cross punches. Still, I like these clips. By keeping the speed down in these demos, I think these guys do a good job of showing that it's not a contest of strength.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Ebmas lat sau is so drastically different to that.. I have a hard time watching it really..
The only way I know how to deflect an indoor punch from the outside with a punch, is by maintaining a low elbow, I get that they are far away.. but the form of the punches just looks mediocre to me..
I detect some slight downward movement.. it took so long for them to establish shin connection, and they aren't even protecting their groins with their fighting stances.. ugh.. so many things I want to nitpick. I'm sorry to be so negative towards an offshoot of WT.. but yeah.. those dudes have been at it way longer than me.. maybe I'm just missing something..

 

[Cyriacus]

Ebmas lat sau is so drastically different to that.. I have a hard time watching it really..
The only way I know how to deflect an indoor punch from the outside with a punch, is by maintaining a low elbow, I get that they are far away.. but the form of the punches just looks mediocre to me..
I detect some slight downward movement.. it took so long for them to establish shin connection, and they aren't even protecting their groins with their fighting stances.. ugh.. so many things I want to nitpick. I'm sorry to be so negative towards an offshoot of WT.. but yeah.. those dudes have been at it way longer than me.. maybe I'm just missing something..

I cant speak for WC, but when things get changed for whatever reason, things change. Just remember that youre comparing to a staple youre familiar with

 

[yak sao]

Ebmas lat sau is so drastically different to that.. I have a hard time watching it really..
The only way I know how to deflect an indoor punch from the outside with a punch, is by maintaining a low elbow, I get that they are far away.. but the form of the punches just looks mediocre to me..
I detect some slight downward movement.. it took so long for them to establish shin connection, and they aren't even protecting their groins with their fighting stances.. ugh.. so many things I want to nitpick. I'm sorry to be so negative towards an offshoot of WT.. but yeah.. those dudes have been at it way longer than me.. maybe I'm just missing something..

Yannis is a former student of Emin. I met him at one of the fighter camps back in '98. He was very good then and I'm sure his skill has done nothing but increase.
Emin has had him on some of his featured videos back in the day and he was a featured bad guy in one or two of Emin's magazine articles
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that he is showing the lat sao from a beginner's perspective. Since it's level one, as he calls it, he is probably keeping it long range and less combative, getting the students in the ballpark.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Yeah, I knew he was once a top guy of Emin's. I guess when I was originally taught Lat sau, We had foot connection, for maybe 2-3 months, and than shin connection. I realize my opinion is biased, and much more so since it's one of the closest things to what I do myself... it just looks like really bad form to me all around.. I think he's just trying to differentiate himself from what EBMAS looks like, and.. it was a bad idea.. in my clearly and sadly.. not so humble opinion.

 

[geezer]

Nabakatsu, I agree with Yak. I think what you were objecting to is primarily a distance thing. When you move in closer your "punch to punch" deflection takes on different characteristics ...more of the low elbow you mentioned. Same for the shin to shin vs. foot to foot contact. I'm former WT but not EBMAS, so I start out with a jut or pak and punch, at the foot-contact range. And in truth, I personally don't work the shin contact as much because of my knee and ankle injuries. For me, I'd be risking more than I'd gain by working knee locks, and the shin to shin position messes with my bad ankle and negatively affects my structure.

You take what you've got and adapt it to the situation. Which brings us back to the OP. Does it have to look a certain way, or is it better to find what works for your body in a given situation?

 

[Nabakatsu]

Yeah.. I think you need to be structurally sound for your WT to work and thus be WT. I know I'm a novice compared to you guys, and Yannis, I'm sure I wouldn't stand a chance at exploiting what I see as bad structure. But it really looks sloppy to me.
I guess I've never even played in that distance.. it just seems so unsafe.. chain punching from Iras.. what's to stop a kick to the balls.. or those goofy steps to make connection, and than still, not even lining it up so your groin is covered.. I don't know why you wouldn't just start training the right way first.. or at least the way I deem right. I know if I did some of those things, my classmates and instructor would eat me for lunch.. It's interesting to finally be the biased one. Usually I'm on the outside of all the drama. Anyways, I mean no disrespect, and I'm sorry if it comes off that way, perhaps we should just agree to disagree, but I'm more than interested in hearing everyone's opinions, maybe I can learn something yet!
As far as the original idea behind the thread goes.. WT is WT if the principals/concepts are applied, and the structure is functional.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Of course, you have to adapt the art to yourself, and your body type, and whatever physical constraints you may or may not have. I'd love to see how you have adapted your wt. I am still not quite at that place, but it's so interesting to see how people develop!

 

[Nabakatsu]

Of course WT in the end starts doing all sorts of crazy things, incorporating some formlessness, from what little I have seen.
I don't understand why he is doing what he is doing.. if your heels are touching on the outside, you still can't reach each others torso or face with punches.. and the lack of groin coverage makes me think their adduction must be lacking if even there.. meh.. lol.. I'll just stop, put me in my place though.. I want to learn!

 

[yak sao]

Of course WT in the end starts doing all sorts of crazy things, incorporating some formlessness, from what little I have seen.
I don't understand why he is doing what he is doing.. if your heels are touching on the outside, you still can't reach each others torso or face with punches.. and the lack of groin coverage makes me think their adduction must be lacking if even there.. meh.. lol.. I'll just stop, put me in my place though.. I want to learn!

I really do hear what you're saying. and I don't dispute it overall, but take what he is doing in context to who it is meant for.
A begiinner is for the most part, stiill trying to figure out left hand from right hand. They are squeamish much of the time about contact, both giving and receiving.
I really think this is a dumbed down drill to have them working hands only , not having to worry about their feet, and doing so from a safe distance so they're not hitting each other and are able to learn the gist of it from a non threatening range.
Now, if they're still in this mode after a week or two, then we have issues.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

It's kinda like the old axiom, "No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time". If you occupy the centerline, your opponent can't. When your opponent charges in with chain punches, his momentum and size (I believe you said that you were of smaller stature than many of your classmates) will make it hard to oppose him straight on. So use a bit of a sidestep and counter deflecting punch against punch, wedging in to take control of his center. Get your opponent turned and keep up the forward pressure.
.

No sir, I am one of the biggest (fat and tall wise) dudes in the class. But the fact still remains, if you occupy the center; no matter how big your opponent is, he/she will have an un-advantageous position.

Let me break it down for ya'll.

I'm 5'11 3/4, (and was 240lbs at the time when I was 18) my reach is that of a person whom is 5'6, so I make up for it by jealously guarding the center and stealing space form other indivuduals. My big problem with WT people is that they think too much about the "correct position" and not enough about "making effective movements"...

This was in the point I made in Geezer's post of "Is this Wing Chun". My sifu was an ***, to be sure. But he did know how to really make wing tsun applicable in real life situations. You need to be dynamic. I've actually had many of occasion to try out my WT in real life. At the bars and clubs. The only time I didn't win ( and it was only a draw), was when I was sparring someone who was under 17 and I pulled my punches and did NOT occupy the center.

I'm telling ya'll, the center is the key.

My best friends daughter (who is 16) can send me reeling on my toes, and she only wieghs about 100-120lbs... I should make a video with her in it and just show how she crowds the center. I've been gone off and on from my birthplace (washington state) since she was 9. But I taught her how to guard the centerline, and she is the only one who can actually make me work for it. I mean god bless it Alecia, give your uncle Guff a break, but she just keeps going.

It makes me believe that anyone (since I outweigh her by easily 100lbs) that if you occupy the center, you at least stand a fighting chance. I'm not saying that you will be victorious in all your endeavors, but that is how I personally win. No matter if the opponent is smaller or bigger. Just like emin in that video I had of him and Obasi... occupy the center and you will be in control of the engagement.

Sorry for the long reply; I really enjoy this thread and everybodies differing viewpoints on how the "basic reactions" should be trained.


Again a call back to Geezer's post; That feller from england had it right; it's better to punch than to deflect!


All the best my good sirs,


Jeff

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

It's kinda like the old axiom, "No two objects can occupy the same space at the same time". If you occupy the centerline, your opponent can't. When your opponent charges in with chain punches, his momentum and size (I believe you said that you were of smaller stature than many of your classmates) will make it hard to oppose him straight on. So use a bit of a sidestep and counter deflecting punch against punch, wedging in to take control of his center. Get your opponent turned and keep up the forward pressure.

Here is a drill I found on Youtube that is a little simpler than the one Mook showed back in post 17. In this version, they just use punch to punch to deflect oncoming chain punches. Notice that they practice both inside and outside gates, and it can be practiced on the same side (right vs. left) or across (right vs. right) It can be done slowly, to concentrate on position and not clashing arms or sped up, like working a speed bag. With good forward pressure, it can be a very aggressive way to counter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERsLaXqGHPI&list=PL3C8A19CEBF5087AC

Incidentally, these guys are not from the organization I belong to, but we do have a common lineage. In my group, we typically begin training with a pak-punch or jut-punch pattern, and later go to this punch to punch pattern since there can be a tendency to use too much force rather than deflection when you cross punches. Still, I like these clips. By keeping the speed down in these demos, I think these guys do a good job of showing that it's not a contest of strength.

Geezer, this is just for you;

But don't you think the jut-da is just a little over-used in LTWT? I find that utilizing a puch (or chainpunching) is much more effective than using a deflective technique. This is of course assuming you have at least experienced the Dummy chi-sau the way LT does it.

My dai-si-hing introduced me and showed me all the dummy chi-sau (with chi-gerk) and it seems after 7th section (and really after 3rd sectioon) that punching is much more to the point than deflecting.

In 4th section (LT chi-sau) we learn the double punches and thats when my sifu really emphasized utilizing cutting punches. And the 5th, 6th and 7th section all did that.

Then when my si-hing taught me dummy chi-sau, same thing... Matter of fact 1st section dummy chi-sau; when your opponent tries the "grab pull" and you utilize the low pull with the pak-da (but underneath and then go above the arms) is a perfect example of not utilizing the "cover, cover, cover, punch" tactic. What do you think? Is it better to strike as fast (and first) as you can, or is the main idea (in your mindset) defense, and then offense?

I can't emphasize how much I would like to pic your brain for a day... or rather a few weeks! Geez, you seem like you hold so much latent knowledge that it's just second nature for you. Grrrr. I'm fixing to move back to texas and train with my dai-si-hing and my si-dai (who run a school together)... Because they are so aweomse.

Actually if you get the chance, check it out geezer! alamocitywingchun(maybe tsun?).com Sifu Glenn Tillman (my dai-si-hing) is probably the nicest guy you'll ever meet, and he is totally a bad-*** when it comes down to it. And Sifu Ramfis (Ram) De Pena (Ya, he is my si-dai, but he is much MUCH better than me. The guy has so much natural skill and is so dedicated to the art; I can't think of a high enough praise for his hardwork and time spent in the saddle).

But check them out, and if you ever get the chance definately roll with them; Aside from being the most gentlemenly people you have EVER met, they are most certainly qualified and very well practiced WT instructors!

All the best Geez!

Jeff

 

[Ediaan]

I agree with jeff_hasbrouck, if you occupy the center you will have the upper hand.
Also, in WT / WC a chain punch can be deflected by also chain punching in a worst case scenario, but stepping fowards and to the side is key. It would not be beneficial to step backwards because you would not be moving the target (your face, in other words), so moving forward, and a bit to the side ( but not too much ) would already give you the advantage.

 

[Harm0nys0ul]

For sparing remember the basics focus on what you know. Don’t worry about what the person your sparing is doing, don’t think about your next move what if this what if that how should I respond if this. None of that matters in a real fight anyway. You want to focus on staying calm, focus on breathing. A lot of sparing I see is people trying to throw this move or that move and so forth, a lot of them forgot the basics and footwork as well. As long as you have a good base and are calm you’ll be fine.
I also agree with jeff_hasbrouc “Center is the key”

 

[geezer]

...don't you think the jut-da is just a little over-used in LTWT? I find that utilizing a puch (or chainpunching) is much more effective than using a deflective technique. ...Is it better to strike as fast (and first)...

er ...yes! :bangahead:

Rhetorical questions?

 

[kaimynas]

thanks again for very valuable advices.. the more i train - and reading this topic again, the more I understand
also i forgot to ask you about basic stance when sparring. By the standards it should be "classical WT" with both legs in one line (like doing siu nim tau) or or other postion when one leg is moved forward... (don't know the names of stances...) thanks

 

[mook jong man]

thanks again for very valuable advices.. the more i train - and reading this topic again, the more I understand
also i forgot to ask you about basic stance when sparring. By the standards it should be "classical WT" with both legs in one line (like doing siu nim tau) or or other postion when one leg is moved forward... (don't know the names of stances...) thanks

Now your opening up a can of worms.
It depends on your lineage , some will have one leg forward , others like mine will square up the stance as in the yckym.

 

[StormShadow]

hello,

I'm 25 old and I training WC for about 5 months. After I gained first level - I''ve been transferred to not-rookies-group.
In some workout days after base training we have a slow-sparring with MMA gloves. I forgot to mention that these 5months is first Martial Arts training months in my life, before this i was doing bodybuilding for about 3 years.. So back to sparring topic. At sparring I'm feeling little disorganized, i feel that my reaction is very slow. I'm always trying to protect my nose - and it feels that the more I protect - the more i'm getting hit into the nose Also for me it's hard to protect from simple straight punches... which i feel should be easiest hits to block... i can't overcome myself to hit my sparring partner into his head instead his stomach... applying the techniques we learning into the sparring situation is also hard as hell..

maybe you guys have some advices or videos on this situation.. i really like Wing Chun and i want to be better at this martial art. Thanks..

Sounds like you make be trying to think too much instead of allowing to flow out of you naturally. I suspect with more time sparring, these things will no longer be an issue for you. It will be second nature soon to utilize your teachings.

 

[kaimynas]

thanks for reply..
but what is the rule of stance when you standing with one leg forward. If i like hitting with right hand so my right leg with right hand should always be in front?

 

[mook jong man]

thanks for reply.. but what is the rule of stance when you standing with one leg forward. If i like hitting with right hand so my right leg with right hand should always be in front?

To a large degree what hand you hit with will be decided by your opponent , if he decides to initiate the attack.

As I said we don't use that type of stance , but if it were me , since I am right handed that would be my front guarding hand and I would have my right leg forward.

Right arm forward , and left leg forward doesn't make much biomechanical sense to me .
But to be certain you should probably check with one of the WT guys like Geezer , Yak Sao etc.