Sparring with A kyouskhosin Karate guy

[blindsage]

Coming from a Kyokushin background and having sparred a few chunners, let me give you some advice. First, if you're playing by his rules you are at a severe disadvantage, talk to him about at least using headgear so there can be some head contact. This might be difficult, Kyokushin guys are stubborn about their way of sparring being the 'best'. But push the issue. Just remember, if you can hit to the head, so can he (and Kyokushin people hit hard), don't assume you'll just be better.

Secondly, the reason, imho, your hits aren't that effective is not just because Kyokushin guys are conditioned to take hits (and really it's just having gotten use to it, nothing special), but because Wing Chun style hits are most effective to vulnerable parts of the body, and not so much to places like the chest (where most Kyokushin punching goes), unless you really know how to root in a fight and really use your structure. This isn't to say vertical punches aren't strong, but most chunners I've known aren't great at using them properly under pressure.

Thirdly, don't just use your kicks as distance makers. This is a great opportunity to explore the potent use of Wing Chung straight kicks as stop technique. Hit his thighs when he throw kicks, off setting his balance this way will discourage the crap out of him. And hit his legs when you're inside and he's not expecting it as well.

Fourth, Enshin Karate is an off-shoot of Kyokushin. It incorporated a lot of side stepping, circular stepping, and 45 degree angle movement because of how linear most Kyokushin fighters move. Use this to your advantage. If they haven't incorporated any Enshin technique this guy should be pretty easy to move around. He will probably be pretty committed to moving straight foward, keep changing your angle.

And think outside the box: if your bon sau happen to put your elbow into his round house kick- 'oops'.

But don't forget Wing Chun targets the centerline, Kyokushin fighters invite their opponent into their centerline because they don't allow shots to the groin, throat or face in their sparring so they are only minimally concerned about protecting those (though you do get hit in them more than is fun). A kyokushin fighter think "go ahead hit me in my torso, I'll take the shot and then knock you the f*** out". So you may need to think differently and approach the whole sparring scenario differently, especially if you're going to let him dictate the terms.

 

[dnovice]

Coming from a Kyokushin background and having sparred a few chunners, let me give you some advice.

awesome.

First, if you're playing by his rules you are at a severe disadvantage,

I don't think its that bad of a disadvantage. I am learning a lot from this kind of sparring. I am adapting to rules. For me, my aim is to become a not only a good wing chunner but first and foremost I want to be a great fighter. For that I need to be able to adapt.

That said though, we will eventually move on to whole body sparring once I get used to working the body... (I have a tendency to always go for the head.

Kyokushin people hit hard. [\quote]

Yes they do! Its good conditioning so long as they don't catch me one my face. (thats for the girlfriend:uhyeah: )

Secondly, the reason, imho, your hits aren't that effective is not just because Kyokushin guys are conditioned to take hits (and really it's just having gotten use to it, nothing special), but because Wing Chun style hits are most effective to vulnerable parts of the body, and not so much to places like the chest (where most Kyokushin punching goes), unless you really know how to root in a fight and really use your structure.

Wing chun punches are just a little harder to use. Although they seem simple to pull of the mechanics of making them effective is very difficult to master. I am working on this now. I'm hoping to see a huge improvement during my next sparring session.

Thirdly, don't just use your kicks as distance makers. This is a great opportunity to explore the potent use of Wing Chung straight kicks as stop technique. Hit his thighs when he throw kicks, off setting his balance this way will discourage the crap out of him. And hit his legs when you're inside and he's not expecting it as well.

good points.

Fourth, Enshin Karate is an off-shoot of Kyokushin. It incorporated a lot of side stepping, circular stepping, and 45 degree angle movement because of how linear most Kyokushin fighters move. Use this to your advantage. If they haven't incorporated any Enshin technique this guy should be pretty easy to move around. He will probably be pretty committed to moving straight foward, keep changing your angle.

I've been practicing the swift side step to the person's blind side while the person is mid motion. I was able to pull this of once or twice during our sparring session. Once you make it to his side and you see his side and head wide open it's like you are in heaven. Then you come back down to earth cause you know you can't hit his head. lol. So i just blast his side.

And think outside the box: if your bon sau happen to put your elbow into his round house kick- 'oops'.

yeah... I tend to avoid bonging kicks. lol. more of a tan with a lifted knee to cover the whole body.

But don't forget Wing Chun targets the centerline, Kyokushin fighters invite their opponent into their centerline because they don't allow shots to the groin, throat or face in their sparring so they are only minimally concerned about protecting those (though you do get hit in them more than is fun).

Exactly! This is why for now I'm working on perfecting my punch, unbalancing my opponent, making him flat footed, side stepping to his blind side, keeping a distance I WANT through kicks and pushes etc. Whenever I do go into the wing chun range its a flurry of overwhelming attacks. I want to make it that whenever I step into the wing chun range its a "finish the person" or get a couple of hits... I do not exchange hits... (keeping myself pretty for my girl:ultracool)

A kyokushin fighter think "go ahead hit me in my torso, I'll take the shot and then knock you the f*** out".

Yes.

So you may need to think differently and approach the whole sparring scenario differently, especially if you're going to let him dictate the terms.

Absolutely. Thank you blindsage.

 

[dnovice]

. A few times now you have mentioned that you are seeing things and not acting, but "in a real fight I would". My recommendation is to act in training as you would in a fight, otherwise all you are doing is training yourself to see and not act.

There is that danger of fighting the same way i train. I know that, but i want to work on attacking the body first. Very soon my friend and I will be moving to full body sparring. He is helping me train for a competition I want to take part in.

I also have another sparring partner with whom the whole body is a target. If things go as planned I should be able to get another sparring partner, making three. (He used to be my wing chun brother so it'll be great for both of us.)

 

[CuongNhuka]

I agree with what Blind sage said: you're at a disadvantage. Not just because you are unfamilar the rules, but that you're unfamilar with the method of fighting.
Something that might help, as crazy as this is going to sound, you might need to learn a little Kyokushin. Those guys move differently then most Martial Artists, they hit differently, they block differently, they abosrob blows differently. Believe it or not, something that might help you combat Kyokushin, is learning Kyokushin.
Wing Chun guys are the same way, there is a distinct and very noticable method of moving and fighting. The techniques are very disimilar to what most other styles do. All other things being equal, this puts you at an advantage. But, I'm going to geuss that you're freind has more experince then you do. Not nessicarily in Kyokushin, but in general in Martial Arts. This training makes it easier for him to make you play his game. Just play you're game, and you should be fine.

 

[dnovice]

I agree with what Blind sage said: you're at a disadvantage. Not just because you are unfamilar the rules, but that you're unfamilar with the method of fighting.

No. I agree with you guys. However, I think i can work with these rules. At least for now. And because I'm stubborn enough to want to beat other people under their rules. ;-) First and foremost though, I want to learn to be a better fighter period... with rules or without.

Something that might help, as crazy as this is going to sound, you might need to learn a little Kyokushin. Those guys move differently then most Martial Artists, they hit differently, they block differently, they abosrob blows differently. Believe it or not, something that might help you combat Kyokushin, is learning Kyokushin.

True. I'm doing fine with wing chun by itself though. This is not to say I don't use karate kicks, boxing punches, muy thai kicks etc... I do on the outer ranges. But I use wing chun to segway into the WC range and then its all wing chun on the inside.

But, I'm going to geuss that you're freind has more experince then you do. Not nessicarily in Kyokushin, but in general in Martial Arts.

Absolutely, right!

This training makes it easier for him to make you play his game. Just play you're game, and you should be fine.

I'm not all about winning when sparring now. The main focus is to learn to use my WC more effectively. He is actually pressing me hard so that I can be prepared for my competition in July. Hopefully, I'll have good news for you guys then:mst:

 

[blindsage]

Here's a video of a chunner sparring a kickboxer and embarrassing him. This is actually one of my favorite vids for showing the possibilities of Wing Chun. The guy is really good at fighting based on Wing Chun principles. I think copying some of his stratedy may work well for you.

The only thing he doesn't seem to have to worry about is low kicks, the kickboxer throws maybe one. Not sure how he would deal with them.

 

[CuongNhuka]

No. I agree with you guys. However, I think i can work with these rules. At least for now. And because I'm stubborn enough to want to beat other people under their rules. ;-) First and foremost though, I want to learn to be a better fighter period... with rules or without.

Rules aside, I'm sure the different method of fighting is (or was) very awkward at first.

True. I'm doing fine with wing chun by itself though. This is not to say I don't use karate kicks, boxing punches, muy thai kicks etc... I do on the outer ranges. But I use wing chun to segway into the WC range and then its all wing chun on the inside.

I meant that more as an idea if you were being PWNed by this guy. If that is the case, I would recommd what I said earlier. If it's a somewhat even match, just do better about playing your own game, and you'll be fine.

I'm not all about winning when sparring now. The main focus is to learn to use my WC more effectively.

Gotcha. If you're planning on making this a heavy commitment, learning another style may make this easier. Filipino styles are obvious, as are Kickboxing/Muay Thai, and BJJ. Other styles I (personnaly) like are: Judo, Aikido, Shotokan. I say these styles as an idea for you to get outside your comfort zone. But, even being outside that zone, you should be able to get material that can be applied to Wing Chun. Feel free to ask me how I know.

He is actually pressing me hard so that I can be prepared for my competition in July. Hopefully, I'll have good news for you guys then:mst:

???
What am I missing?

 

[Domino]

Here's a video of a chunner sparring a kickboxer and embarrassing him. This is actually one of my favorite vids for showing the possibilities of Wing Chun. The guy is really good at fighting based on Wing Chun principles. I think copying some of his stratedy may work well for you.

The only thing he doesn't seem to have to worry about is low kicks, the kickboxer throws maybe one. Not sure how he would deal with them.

Thanks for bringing this up, nice techniques and decent application.

 

[dnovice]

Here's a video of a chunner sparring a kickboxer and embarrassing him. This is actually one of my favorite vids for showing the possibilities of Wing Chun. The guy is really good at fighting based on Wing Chun principles. I think copying some of his stratedy may work well for you.

The only thing he doesn't seem to have to worry about is low kicks, the kickboxer throws maybe one. Not sure how he would deal with them.

Great Video with good usage of technique Blindsage. Simple but effect.

What am I missing?

I plan on entering a full contact CMA contest this July. Thats why I'm training hard.

 

[blindsage]

Ahhh, smart to spar with a Kyokushin fighter then.