sparring for contest vs practical sparring
- Thread starter Manny
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Pedantix
Yellow Belt
While I don't do TKD, I can offer my opinion on the difference in karate/kickboxing sparring and practical application sparring.
As there are rules in a sport setting, it gives you the opportunity to apply techniques that are a little more... fanciful, or wild, if you will. For example, head kicks. Now, we all know that a head kick is a great technique and can be utilized to deliver a damaging blow in a sport setting, perhaps even resulting in a knockout. But on the street, where there is no regulation, there are so many variables that such a technique can wind up being quite detrimental to the user (say you miss the kick, and slip, or you miss and turn your back for one second and end up with a knife in the ribs, etc).
On the street it is not a game of points or technique, it is a game of survival (not really much of a game at all, actually). Because of this different, dirtier techniques are called for (i.e., groin shots, knee kicks, throat stikes, eye gouges, etc). So in a sparring sense, when learning to utilize the techniques you have learned in a spontaneous and flowing manner, it is a completely different setting.
While sparring for sport you may not go all out as you are not trying to hurt your practice partner, you are more focused on using what you can and being able to recognize openings and naturally react and put in whatever punch/kick/elbow/etc that flows into that situation, but you are able to put a fair amount of force behind your strikes while not focusing so much on causing the most amount of damage possible.
In sparring for street application on the other hand, you ARE focusing on the strikes that do the most damage and will stop and disable someone as fast as possible. Because of this you have to be Very careful of your strikes, as there is a much larger chance of hurting someone. Also the sparring becomes much more situational. It's not always "lets square up and challenge eachother", but instead things come into play like "what if I attacked you from this angle" or "what if this happened" type scenarios, as there are many more variables in a realistic street setting.
So in my mind I guess they are two completely different exercises, just some thoughts.
As there are rules in a sport setting, it gives you the opportunity to apply techniques that are a little more... fanciful, or wild, if you will. For example, head kicks. Now, we all know that a head kick is a great technique and can be utilized to deliver a damaging blow in a sport setting, perhaps even resulting in a knockout. But on the street, where there is no regulation, there are so many variables that such a technique can wind up being quite detrimental to the user (say you miss the kick, and slip, or you miss and turn your back for one second and end up with a knife in the ribs, etc).
On the street it is not a game of points or technique, it is a game of survival (not really much of a game at all, actually). Because of this different, dirtier techniques are called for (i.e., groin shots, knee kicks, throat stikes, eye gouges, etc). So in a sparring sense, when learning to utilize the techniques you have learned in a spontaneous and flowing manner, it is a completely different setting.
While sparring for sport you may not go all out as you are not trying to hurt your practice partner, you are more focused on using what you can and being able to recognize openings and naturally react and put in whatever punch/kick/elbow/etc that flows into that situation, but you are able to put a fair amount of force behind your strikes while not focusing so much on causing the most amount of damage possible.
In sparring for street application on the other hand, you ARE focusing on the strikes that do the most damage and will stop and disable someone as fast as possible. Because of this you have to be Very careful of your strikes, as there is a much larger chance of hurting someone. Also the sparring becomes much more situational. It's not always "lets square up and challenge eachother", but instead things come into play like "what if I attacked you from this angle" or "what if this happened" type scenarios, as there are many more variables in a realistic street setting.
So in my mind I guess they are two completely different exercises, just some thoughts.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
There is no separation, training methods for WTF sparing is practical. Any sparring type that does not allow for full contact knockout blows, is not practical for self defense.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
IMNSHO it is really difficul to have "Sparring" that will truly simulate real world parameters. Can you bite? Can you jam your fingers into any available orifice and start ripping? The closest I think I have come to something like this in a training environment was padded assailant training. This allowed me to do most anything, however it wasn't truly "real" because the attackers limited what they did. So, while various sparring systems may have real world / confrontation application, they are by neccessity limited.
If need be you need to fight like a Chimp (how would you do this in "Sparring?):
If need be you need to fight like a Chimp (how would you do this in "Sparring?):
As St. James confronted the chimp, the six-two former running back turned to find a second chimp — also a male, this one older and bigger — bearing down on him as well. With both hands, he pushed the bigger animal. Both chimps pounced. One of the animals grabbed him in a bear hug before chomping into the bone above his right eyebrow. He then stuck his finger in St. James's right eye, gouging it out. The same animal clamped his teeth onto St. James's nose, biting it off, as the other chimp chewed away at St. James's fingers. In the melee, one of the chimps dug in his claws and ripped the skin off the right side of St. James's face, causing it to flop over and cover his left eye, temporarily blinding him. One of the primates sunk his teeth into St. James's skull. He then closed his jaws on St. James's mouth, ripping off his lips and most of his teeth. St. James tried to put one of his hands down the animal's throat, but the chimp just kept chewing on it and chewing on it, and he couldn't get it out.
St. James fell to the ground, no longer able to defend himself, and for at least five minutes, the mauling continued as he lay helpless. One of the chimps gnawed on his buttocks and bit off his genitals. They ravaged his left foot, leaving it shredded.
Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/chimpanzee-attack-0409-3#ixzz1jHeiSbL0
St. James fell to the ground, no longer able to defend himself, and for at least five minutes, the mauling continued as he lay helpless. One of the chimps gnawed on his buttocks and bit off his genitals. They ravaged his left foot, leaving it shredded.
Read more: http://www.esquire.com/features/chimpanzee-attack-0409-3#ixzz1jHeiSbL0
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
Damn. That is a sad story. Just when you think it could not get worse for the guy, it does.
vikings827
Yellow Belt
Wow. Just, wow.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
...Dont You mean, Awesome?
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TKDTony2179
Blue Belt
WTF sparring isn't ideal for real life practical self defense. Most of the time hands are down, they stop after a major point is scored, and no take downs or throws are used in that kind of sparring. Clinch work in that sparring is a joke.
You need to incorporate all areas os strikes in your sparring to able to truely understand what you can and can't do under pressure.
WTF, as in Olympic type sparring is practical for what exactly? Definitively not self defence, hence the separation.
There are many martial arts and self defence systems that do not knock out their training partners that are practical for self defence.
Most of the knockouts that do occur are the result of having the arms down.
Just an FYI since the thread has been brought back to the top, Master Cole has passed away. I mention this only due to him being quoted a couple of times above in case the posters did not know of his passing.
I agree.
Sparring entails a specific rule set that is imposed in an artificially created environment. It does not reflect real world situations and the training methodology used in sparring is diametrically opposed to self defense training methodology. That isn't meant to imply that sparring isn't 'practical' but that the venue needs to be considered as key. For competition, sparring is an ideal training tool. For self defense related training, it is a detriment to training and I would go so far as to say dangerous on several levels.
This is not to say the street does not have rules, because it does. Fighting is governed by criminal and civil law. I was recenlty threatened by four teens, and I could have smashed one in the face before he blinked, but I know better... I escaped with having to fight. My friend, who punched a strong arm robber in the jaw, breaking it, wound up i court for felonious assault. The prosecutor alleged the force went beyond what was necessary. My friend was acquitted but it cost him nearly $20 grand in legal fees. Now he is facing a civil case. Yeap, in the USA, criminals have rights.
skribs
Grandmaster
I'm with Earl. Take any almost any combat sport (Olympic Sparring, Wrestling, Judo, Boxing, MMA, etc) and most of the techniques allowed are ones that you would not want to use in a real fight. Palm strikes are safer on your hands than punches. You don't want to go down with the attacker. Similarly, the targets you would want to strike - eyes, neck, spine, groin, etc - are usually off-limits. This isn't to discount sparring as a form of practice for practical application. It is good to practice full force, to learn to take hits, and to fight against a live opponent who can be just as random as an attacker. However, I don't feel you get to effectively practice real self defense techniques.
We do one-step sparring in my dojang to practice our defense skills. Essentially it's a group of mini-forms we use to go over possible ways to respond to an attack. We obviously pull our punches, as we're usually aiming for the neck or groin, or going for an arm break, but it does give us techniques more applicable to a real fight.
We do one-step sparring in my dojang to practice our defense skills. Essentially it's a group of mini-forms we use to go over possible ways to respond to an attack. We obviously pull our punches, as we're usually aiming for the neck or groin, or going for an arm break, but it does give us techniques more applicable to a real fight.
TKDTony2179
Blue Belt
Sorry, didn't know master cole had passed. I was looking at the bottom and looking at simiar threads that is was similar to the current thread under self-defense. ( The Sparring Thread)
No problem at all. It was early last year. I just wanted to put out an FYI in case you were looking for a specific reply from him.
