Sparring/Fighting Drunk

[ballen0351]

Er, I wasn't drunk, I hadn't done any drinking whatsoever. It was a bout with someone else who had been drinking.

This was also in my own home. I was completely sober.

22 College and party in same sentence and you were sober? Your doing it wrong then

And missed the entire point to avoid altercations with the intoxicated?

Because most of us are well beyond 22 and already learned that lesson years ago

Because I'm fine now? And knew I would be when we both went up against each other? This wasn't a mugging with the PCP people, which is an entirely different story.

Id love to hear that one as someone that has actually delt with people on PCP Id love to hear your version.

I have a girlfriend I am very happy with ^_^

again 22 and in college your doing it wrong.

 

[K-man]

Er, I wasn't drunk, I hadn't done any drinking whatsoever. It was a bout with someone else who had been drinking.

This was also in my own home. I was completely sober.

Again, why am I surprised nobody actually read my post? And missed the entire point to avoid altercations with the intoxicated?



Because I'm fine now? And knew I would be when we both went up against each other? This wasn't a mugging with the PCP people, which is an entirely different story. This wasn't against a random drunk off the street- this was my neighbor, who when he came to this morning we went out to IHOP. There's no ill will between either of us. The fight could have been ugly, it wasn't.

And this is the the guy who while sober, spars with someone who is drunk and gets smacked in the mouth.

I think that shows I did read your post.

The point is you decided to spar your friend while he was drunk. Not a good move on several counts. Firstly, in avading you, he might have fallen and hit his head. That is one of the biggest causes of serious injury in street brawls involving alcohol. Secondly, as you said youself, the fight could have got ugly. If your friend,whom I assume is a martial artist, was so drunk that it could have got ugly, you should have been sensible enough to have said, "not now".

Now, I will apply your logic to my training. If I posted every time I got a smack in the mouth, my number of posts would skyrocket. I'm possibly not as skilled a martial artist as you because I seem to get hit regularly. Last week I got hit in the head boxing, the week before I got a fat lip practicing bunkai. If I follow your advice, perhaps I should give up both. Every time we spar I get hit in the head. Hmmm! Hang on a second, why do I get hit all the time and you don't? Are you really that much better than me or could it be that our training is at close range? Could it be that if you train hard and fast that the chances are you will be hit occasionally?

You also say in your post, "and missed the entire point to avoid altercations with the intoxicated." We didn't miss that at all. Everyone is amazed that, at your perceived level of ability and training, you would actually spar (not fight) your drunk friend. In the real world, alcohol fueled aggression is probably the number one cause of trouble. At some time it may not be possible to avoid confrontation with a drunken aggressor. The point is, even then it may not be necessary to fight. To choose to spar your drunk friend is what has caused our concern.

 

[Big Don]

I have a girlfriend I am very happy with ^_^


again 22 and in college your doing it wrong.
QFT!!!

 

[Zenjael]

again 22 and in college your doing it wrong.

I did my sleeping around, and fun days in high school. And I found it to be against who I considered myself to be. To put it in better perspective; I am young, I do not think I will get married anytime soon, but I do think I have found a girl who, in time, might be the person I'll be with. Why would I pass up, what to me, is happiness? Poon isn't worth that much, when your significant other is, in your eyes, the best you've found. Sure it's biased, but then again that's why I'm dating her... or maybe she's dating me?

I'm possibly not as skilled a martial artist as you because I seem to get hit regularly. Last week I got hit in the head boxing, the week before I got a fat lip practicing bunkai. If I follow your advice, perhaps I should give up both. Every time we spar I get hit in the head. Hmmm! Hang on a second, why do I get hit all the time and you don't? Are you really that much better than me or could it be that our training is at close range? Could it be that if you train hard and fast that the chances are you will be hit occasionally?

I wouldn't say degree of skill will necessarily be the greatest factor against an intoxicated person. I tend not to get hit because in Ba gua we emphasize evasion over confrontation. Most of my blocks are strikes, and most of my blocks, which make contact, are re-directing of the other's arms or legs.

If you get hit in the head, I'd actually advise you to keep going, keep getting hit, until you aren't anymore. Re-evaluate your tactics, your durability. I'm still recovering from the adenovirus, and no amount of training is going to stop even a simple slap to my midsection from really hurting me in my current health-condition. It's in part why I've eased back on practicing and training, but is also why I am returning to the amount I was doing before becoming ill.

Everyone is amazed that, at your perceived level of ability and training, you would actually spar (not fight) your drunk friend. In the real world, alcohol fueled aggression is probably the number one cause of trouble. At some time it may not be possible to avoid confrontation with a drunken aggressor. The point is, even then it may not be necessary to fight. To choose to spar your drunk friend is what has caused our concern.

I'll be honest when I say, having been assaulted by individuals who no amount of bodily harm could stop, I would much rather get shot with BB's, pellets, or airsoft and paintball, than a real bullet. But like it or not, I may have an altercation again with someone who is intoxicated. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to ever raise arms with another, because in the end it is just more training. Should I have? It is debatable- but it was in a setting where it was comfortable, other's could easily stop things if it went south, and both of us had combat training experience.

It'll prolly happen again- Chris lives across the street and he had a great time too. Now if you want to talk about crazy, we should discuss the axe throwing contests, while drunk. Or jumping out of moving cars into windows, or trees. Or jumping off 4 story buildings, using trees to get us down. Or smuggling swine across virginia in a mini-van. Scaling light poles, and standing on one foot at the top... and falling. Scaling building walls for the sake of jumping off the top of the building (again... use your trees). I'm not saying I'm not crazy- trust me, I've got a pretty good grasp that I do some stupid stuff. I just don't have a very good sense of fear anymore. Used to be scared of the dark... till a dog attacked me, and I kicked it, and I realized I'm probably more dangerous than anything which might attack me outside. Used to be scared of heights... till I forced myself to do mountain climbing, and got over it. I confront my fears, and destroy them.

But, to wax nerd, I am beginning to feel a bit like scarecrow. It's partly why when joining with the intention of infantry, I am curious to see what will occur with me in combat.

The point is you decided to spar your friend while he was drunk. Not a good move on several counts. Firstly, in avading you, he might have fallen and hit his head. That is one of the biggest causes of serious injury in street brawls involving alcohol. Secondly, as you said youself, the fight could have got ugly. If your friend,whom I assume is a martial artist, was so drunk that it could have got ugly, you should have been sensible enough to have said, "not now".

Fortunantely, he was obviously a boxer. I am not certain of his training, because he did not throw any kicks. He had good control of his hands, and was very comfortable using his fingers for gouging strikes. It was interesting. It was crude. And... it was fun, in the end, which is why we went at it. I had a great time. But it was also a valuable learning lesson, and reminder that one can get hurt. I have, at worst, a mild contusion on my lip... which has already practically healed (it's not noticable.) This was not like being on the street... but it could have been, very easily.

22 College and party in same sentence and you were sober? Your doing it wrong then

Alcohol is foul, and ultimately a poison. I'm a chiefer, not a drinker.

Id love to hear that one as someone that has actually delt with people on PCP Id love to hear your version.

I gave a solid uppercut between the thyroid cartiledge and Hyoid bone to one individual's neck, with enough force he was pushed over. It should have killed him. Considering he then stood up, with a crushed larynx, I booked it. No clue what they were on actually, but everyone I've spoken with, from martial teacher to officer, has told me I am safe to assume it was PCP, given alcohol would have most likely caused him to upchuck from the injury. In addition, I got cursed at a lot as they approached, and there was 0 slurring, 0 staggering.

I have absolutely no idea what resulted with the two after I ran. The next morning I found my Ipod on the ground where I'd thrown it when it was obvious they were aggressively approaching. I had no pockets, no wallet at the time. The only reason I managed to hit him in the neck and wail on the other was that they were obviously drugged on something, and were patting me down looking for, presumably my wallet.

When I can break a cinderblock with a palm, and that same force went into a person's neck, specifically their trachea, and they then get up... yeah no thank you. I booked it.

It was the summer between my junior and senior year of high school. I've gone over that mugging so many times, and the blow to the other's neck was wrong. Yes, I felt endangered, but in hindsight it was not a life threatening ordeal, even to start. They both strode up to me, one pushed me, while the other punched me in the face. It was weak, and did no damage. His hand felt soft. I pretended to be prone while they patted me down, and when they reached my waist that's when I punched the first individual in the neck, and jumped on the other, and started wailing on his face. These were not martial art strikes, it was just clubbing him down, and trying to destroy him. I had no other intent, and I regret that I was so brash and hot-headed.

Part of why I didn't immediately report the incident was because of the fact afterwards I was literally covered in blood on my arms (I hit the second individual on the nose perhaps 5-6 times, before the first individual tackled me, whom I had hit in the neck) and worried I might actually end up with an assault charge for using excessive force. And I had been excessive, that is undeniable. And I am ashamed of it.

For all I know, I could have killed the first person the moment I hit their neck. It was more luck than drugs that I probably did minimal damage to him. I hope he is alright; my ipod wasn't worth the ordeal.

The ironic thing is that I was walking home from a girl's house I had just been having a good time with earlier, so I was kinda tired. I know that's a bit personal, but it's a bit relevant when you're mugged at 2-3 in the morning, and are dog tired as is.

I had my 'college fun' in high school, and being expelled for having too much fun, tempered that side of me considerably. That and a month later my best friend hung himself from the family swingset in their backyard.

I did a lot of maturing in those years, I still have a lot to go. I hope next time I am mugged, and yes, I expect it (I am paranoid, I get into vehicles only in a certain way, I only sleep in rooms with more than 2 exits, be they window or door, and if I'm seated, I stick to a corner where I can see everyone entering the dining area, and exiting. When turning corners, I check- though that's from having a plate slammed into my face when I was still in my 'jackass' days).

Here's a video of us smashing a plate on a friend, among the other antics we engaged in;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZYz3rqs9Go&list=UUshtzrQ6EsSUkoZtlVqRrBQ&index=14&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvN8SVnD_oM&list=UUshtzrQ6EsSUkoZtlVqRrBQ&index=12&feature=plcp

That all ended when nick killed himself. It's ok to have fun- but I'm learning slowly but surely that I'd like to get to reach 30 so I can keep having fun. I consider myself a middle class, white-boy, and potentially a stoner. Or used to be, anyway. SWIM have had the misfortune of being snuck weed which was laced with coke, another occasion with adderall, xanax, and once... horribly, PcP. It was not the same experience as those who say do just angel dust, but from the limited experience, it was enough to at least give SWIM an idea of what the heck those two were on. SWIM felt unstoppable, sick, and was not in the right state of mind. It's partially why SWIM stopped doing drugs, that and all of us just have to grow up one day. SWIM doesn't want to be 25 and smoking weed, or anything for that matter. I just find it sad.

I have had my fun... too much, all I am interested in now is finishing my degree, and joining the military.

Now legos... you couldn't make me give those up if you tried.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sigh. I tried.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is debatable- but it was in a setting where it was comfortable, other's could easily stop things if it went south, and both of us had combat training experience.

I'm sorry, what? You have served in the military?

It's partly why when joining with the intention of infantry, I am curious to see what will occur with me in combat.

Or you are *going* to join the military? Which branch? When?

Alcohol is foul, and ultimately a poison. I'm a chiefer, not a drinker.

What the hell is "cheifer?"

I have had my fun... too much, all I am interested in now is finishing my degree, and joining the military.

Which military? When? On whose side?

 

[Cyriacus]

If you get hit in the head, I'd actually advise you to keep going, keep getting hit, until you aren't anymore. Re-evaluate your tactics, your durability. I'm still recovering from the adenovirus, and no amount of training is going to stop even a simple slap to my midsection from really hurting me in my current health-condition. It's in part why I've eased back on practicing and training, but is also why I am returning to the amount I was doing before becoming ill.

Yeah. Continue to have Your Brain knocked around in Your Skull whilst You take the time to stand there and reevaluate the situation and plan Your next move, and assess Your Tactics. Im sorry, but theres nothing nice I can say about that.

I'll be honest when I say, having been assaulted by individuals who no amount of bodily harm could stop, I would much rather get shot with BB's, pellets, or airsoft and paintball, than a real bullet. But like it or not, I may have an altercation again with someone who is intoxicated. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to ever raise arms with another, because in the end it is just more training. Should I have? It is debatable- but it was in a setting where it was comfortable, other's could easily stop things if it went south, and both of us had combat training experience.

I confront my fears, and destroy them.

This is You glorifying things some more You find something Youre afraid of, then do it until Youre not. Its kinda like drinking Alchohol until You build up a tolerance to it. Also, thats not a reference to the overall thread, Im just using that as the best example I can think of.

But, to wax nerd, I am beginning to feel a bit like scarecrow. It's partly why when joining with the intention of infantry, I am curious to see what will occur with me in combat.

You realise theres a good chance You wont actually see any Combat, right?

Alcohol is foul, and ultimately a poison. I'm a chiefer, not a drinker.

So are Painkillers. And Sedatives. And Drugs. And arguably Soft Drinks. And so on.
Pick Your Poison, Friends. Because Youre consuming some form or another. And if Youre not consuming any Salt, or Sugar, or any of that? Salt = Sodium = Essential. Theres no physically safe way to be squaky clean. And Alcohol aint as bad as most of the other stuff, so long as You dont abuse it. The same can be said of all the other stuff. You can also abuse Water. Water Intoxication is similar to Alcohol Intoxication. You drink too much, You get an effect. Except Water does alot more harm, and can seriously incapacitate You, if not Hospitalise You, or do in Your Kidneys.

I gave a solid uppercut between the thyroid cartiledge and Hyoid bone to one individual's neck, with enough force he was pushed over. It should have killed him. Considering he then stood up, with a crushed larynx, I booked it. No clue what they were on actually, but everyone I've spoken with, from martial teacher to officer, has told me I am safe to assume it was PCP, given alcohol would have most likely caused him to upchuck from the injury. In addition, I got cursed at a lot as they approached, and there was 0 slurring, 0 staggering.

People aint as brittle as They could be scientifically deemed to be. Consider the force behind any general strike You consider to be very powerful. I read alot about people talking about MT Roundhouses and Boxing Crosses, so lets take them. Make them super forceful. Then consider that people get hit by those, and just keep going. Humans aint that delicate.

...when it was obvious they were aggressively approaching.

Congratulations, You were in the best imaginable situation for an Engagement. One where You were approached, and not spontaneously attacked. You are now in a minority, if Im not mistaken.

When I can break a cinderblock with a palm, and that same force went into a person's neck, specifically their trachea, and they then get up... yeah no thank you. I booked it.

I can do in a cinderblock with a fist. Does that all My Punches should break folks like twigs? A totally untrained strike to the trachea will work. Training makes it easier, not better.

It was the summer between my junior and senior year of high school. I've gone over that mugging so many times, and the blow to the other's neck was wrong. Yes, I felt endangered, but in hindsight it was not a life threatening ordeal, even to start. They both strode up to me, one pushed me, while the other punched me in the face. It was weak, and did no damage. His hand felt soft. I pretended to be prone while they patted me down, and when they reached my waist that's when I punched the first individual in the neck, and jumped on the other, and started wailing on his face. These were not martial art strikes, it was just clubbing him down, and trying to destroy him. I had no other intent, and I regret that I was so brash and hot-headed.

This is my point about fighting being disorderly. Because if your training doesnt reflect the fact that in the end, fighting comes down to uncontrolled uncoordinated barraging, Youre probably doing it wrong.

Part of why I didn't immediately report the incident was because of the fact afterwards I was literally covered in blood on my arms (I hit the second individual on the nose perhaps 5-6 times, before the first individual tackled me, whom I had hit in the neck) and worried I might actually end up with an assault charge for using excessive force. And I had been excessive, that is undeniable. And I am ashamed of it.

No Comment.

For all I know, I could have killed the first person the moment I hit their neck. It was more luck than drugs that I probably did minimal damage to him. I hope he is alright; my ipod wasn't worth the ordeal.

Ive been punched in the neck. It didnt do anything. Because in order for a blow to the neck to be effective, it needs to compress something further than it can go, and it has to compress it forcefully. Youd have needed to crush it with more than a sudden impact for it to be lethal. All itd have done is stopped him breathing for a couple of seconds, and the shock is probably what took him down, more than anything else.

I have had my fun... too much, all I am interested in now is finishing my degree, and joining the military.

Good for You.

*nods

Now for the first part, so that I can say not nice things about that.
Blunt Forced Trauma has this way of stopping You from thinking straight.
Oop! Im being hit in the head. Guess id better stand here whilst my indestructible skull gets bashed, so i can rethink this and plan out some fresh tactics.

 

[K-man]

I wouldn't say degree of skill will necessarily be the greatest factor against an intoxicated person. I tend not to get hit because in Ba gua we emphasize evasion over confrontation. Most of my blocks are strikes, and most of my blocks, which make contact, are re-directing of the other's arms or legs.

Alex, Alex what am I going to do. You are so full of your own brilliance that you are blinded to reality. From your video you showed no Bagua that I could see and your blocks that were strikes didn't exist because you were too far away from your partner to get a strike in. I very rarely get hit but for a vastly different reason.

If you get hit in the head, I'd actually advise you to keep going, keep getting hit, until you aren't anymore. Re-evaluate your tactics, your durability. I'm still recovering from the adenovirus, and no amount of training is going to stop even a simple slap to my midsection from really hurting me in my current health-condition. It's in part why I've eased back on practicing and training, but is also why I am returning to the amount I was doing before becoming ill.

Alex, I am starting to despair. As I said in an earlier post, my green belts would have a picnic fighting you. I thank you for your advice to keep getting hit. It makes a lot of sense .. not! I think though that rather than get one of my guys to do it to me, I can probably achieve the same result by hitting my head up against a brick wall.

I really don't get hit often, but when we spar, we are in close and we hit hard and fast. Because of the intensity we wear full-face head protection. Every so often one gets through. Alex, you must understand, in the real world you don't stop everything. We call it conditioning. We get hit and we keep going. I've had busted ribs in sparring and kept going.

Fortunantely, he was obviously a boxer. I am not certain of his training, because he did not throw any kicks. He had good control of his hands, and was very comfortable using his fingers for gouging strikes. It was interesting. It was crude. And... it was fun, in the end, which is why we went at it. I had a great time. But it was also a valuable learning lesson, and reminder that one can get hurt. I have, at worst, a mild contusion on my lip... which has already practically healed (it's not noticable.) This was not like being on the street... but it could have been, very easily.

You were sparring a drunk friend! You think he was a boxer! (That's probably why you got the smack in the mouth because boxers generally fight at much closer range than TKD. He wouldn't have realised that he was meant to stay that far away from you.). Doesn't that strike you as an incredibly dumb thing to do? I mean, I assumed that he was one of your playmates from your dojo.

I did a lot of maturing in those years, I still have a lot to go.

Your last comment is absolutely true, but you obviously were starting from an exceptionally low base. .:asian:

 

[Tez3]

Your last comment is absolutely true, but you obviously were starting from an exceptionally low base. .:asian:

:rofl::rofl::rofl: oh yes!

 

[frank raud]

Er, I wasn't drunk, I hadn't done any drinking whatsoever. It was a bout with someone else who had been drinking.

This was also in my own home. I was completely sober.

Again, why am I surprised nobody actually read my post? And missed the entire point to avoid altercations with the intoxicated?

Why am I surprised you think no one read your post, despite the many replies adressing the multiple issues and concerns for the events you describe? Regarding avoiding altercations with the intoxicated, I am reminded of the oft quoted Will Rogers "There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why am I surprised you think no one read your post, despite the many replies adressing the multiple issues and concerns for the events you describe? Regarding avoiding altercations with the intoxicated, I am reminded of the oft quoted Will Rogers "There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

 

[Big Don]

Where is it that you teach? Because I want you to be my instructor.

 

[MJS]

I think today I learned a fairly good lesson about why one should be particularly cautious when sparring with people who are intoxicated. This would not be the first time (I'm a bit of a southern boy in some senses, and at our parties these sort of things always happen). As of right now I am sporting probably the fatest lip I've had in half a decade- but considering the person intoxicated received no injury, and the non-intoxicated a mild abrasion to the mouth, I think this among the better results of any boxing while intoxicants are involved.

I write this article- firstly to say that yes, at 22 I am in college and still act immaturely at times, even with studying martial arts. But moreso to emphasize this point; if you ever are in an altercation with someone intoxicated, it doesn't matter how things are going, they might, and probably will turn mean at any instant, and you must be on your most protective guard. You don't get to choose who you are attacked by, nor what they are on when they do, and hopefully you are not the one in 100,000 who do statistically get mugged... but I have been, twice, so I don't leave chance up to statistics. Not when my life is concerned. And being 5'4" means a lot of people see me, think 'small', and associate the word with exploitation. Hence how I can oft have such an unbecoming manner on these boards, and I am apologetic in those times I am more confrontational than is necessary. We all have our demons we work with ^_^.

I can adequately say we had 3 bouts where we stepped back, and got our breath. I was very happy the first two bouts went without any injury, and was enjoyable. But the third turned ugly, fast, with shots aimed directly at my mouth and teeth. You never know when the trigger gets pulled, and the worst thing is, the intoxicated don't either. Escalation has a totally different meaning when it comes to drugs- and you have to be aware of that. Hence why I didn't use kicks at all- I can only imagine the assault from a drunk individual who truly feels overwhelmed, and forgets where they are, in a safe location. You aren't fighting a man then, you're fighting somebody reduced to instincts- animalism.

When against the unreasonable, it is your reason which will protect and save your life.

Having been mugged by people on PCP, I feel I must say this; the most dangerous, scary fights are with individuals who are drugged. They no longer know their limits, nor their normative operating abilities. Proceed with caution, and protect your face at all costs. I might have received a couple of cuts on my mouth, and a fat lip- but I lost no teeth, and that was with thinking, as I raised my arms against the other, that I should prolly put a mouthguard in, at least.

And that thought wasn't wrong.

Safety to you all- hence this post.

Sooo....it started off as a friendly messing around game, but apparently the other guy started getting pissed. Well, I think its safe to chalk this up to carelessness, plain and simple.

This is why for myself, I a) avoid high risk places, such as bars/clubs, b) don't drink, c) if I do find myself in places like that, I do my best to be aware and don't get to the point where I'm not thinking clearly.

 

[MJS]

I can see that you still need work on the proper use of how to quote a post or multiple posts. Yes, I read your post. It sounds to me, like there perhaps are pieces missing. Obviously one of you, I assume YOU, were not drinking, while the other was. This also sounds like someone who knew you 'do' the martial arts, and wanted to 'test' you perhaps? It sounds like this was something that YOU agreed to do. Why not just leave? Instead, you both engaged in 3 rounds of 'fighting' with each other. Sounds to me that you're just as guilty as the kid who was drinking.

Sorry, this wasn't an altercation. This was 2 people not using that thing on their shoulders.

Er, I wasn't drunk, I hadn't done any drinking whatsoever. It was a bout with someone else who had been drinking.

This was also in my own home. I was completely sober.

Again, why am I surprised nobody actually read my post? And missed the entire point to avoid altercations with the intoxicated?



Because I'm fine now? And knew I would be when we both went up against each other? This wasn't a mugging with the PCP people, which is an entirely different story. This wasn't against a random drunk off the street- this was my neighbor, who when he came to this morning we went out to IHOP. There's no ill will between either of us. The fight could have been ugly, it wasn't.



I have a girlfriend I am very happy with ^_^



Through, does not mean the same thing as 'because'. The through is referng to witnessing their growth by practicing with them, and seeing the change myself. Not because of anything I did, though I would like to think I helped. Sorry for my poor wording.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Where is it that you teach? Because I want you to be my instructor.

Can you fit inside a video game console?

 

[Big Don]

Can you fit inside a video game console?

The old 80's style arcade cabinets, sure, an XBox? No...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The old 80's style arcade cabinets, sure, an XBox? No...

Well, see, that's going to be a problem.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I don't understand. Was this guy you were sparring with a close friend? Was he a training partner at your dojo? Or was he just some random acquaintance?

 

[K-man]

This is why for myself, I a) avoid high risk places, such as bars/clubs, b) don't drink, c) if I do find myself in places like that, I do my best to be aware and don't get to the point where I'm not thinking clearly.

Good advice, but Zenjael seems to fail the think clearly bit! :hammer:

 

[MJS]

Good advice, but Zenjael seems to fail the think clearly bit! :hammer:

Yup. Well, I tried, as did many others. Oh well....