Sparring a 14 yr old BB

kenposikh

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Zepp said:
That shouldn't be an issue anywhere in the U.S., just so long as the child is partcipating with her parents' permission. I would assume that in this case the instructor requires the girl's parents to sign a waiver. Whether it's an adult or a child, to sue for an accident in sparring they would have to prove that either the instructor was negligent, or that someone deliberately tried to cause them injury.

BTW, personally, I wouldn't care if someone is a 10th dan and 80 years old, I still wouldn't call them "master" when speaking to them. "Sir," "ma'am," and "Mr./Ms. So-and-so" are acceptable under any situation.

Ok thanks for that, This is an issue that has come to my mind recently and I still see loopholes maybe where there aren't any. BUt I suppose a waiver signed by parents and student should cover it.
 

terryl965

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kenposikh said:
Hi Personally her age should not come into question, however some issues do unfortunately rear their ugly heads for example child protection.

Technically she is a child and sparring with adults certainly here in the UK with child protection this and child protection that it would certainly be frowned upon.

Just wondering what issues would be raised in your area let's say for instance she takes a knock takes it gracefully and then decides to sue at a later time.

just my thoughts
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Here she can spar 14-17 year old division and also 18-32 year old if she chooses to and is good enough and please child laws we have athletes that compete at the olympic games when the are 12 if they are good enough against grown adults what make you think in sport TKD this can;t be done. You say you are from the UK well they was at the US open just last week and had a 15 year old guy compete in the 19-32 year old brackets so it happens all the time. Does it make it right maybe maybe not.
Terry
 

kenposikh

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terryl965 said:
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Here she can spar 14-17 year old division and also 18-32 year old if she chooses to and is good enough and please child laws we have athletes that compete at the olympic games when the are 12 if they are good enough against grown adults what make you think in sport TKD this can;t be done. You say you are from the UK well they was at the US open just last week and had a 15 year old guy compete in the 19-32 year old brackets so it happens all the time. Does it make it right maybe maybe not.
Terry

Hi Terry,

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way I didn't mean to.

if yo re-read my posts I just wanted to know how these situations are handled in the studios and not the public sport arena. This question was answered.

Amrik
 

terryl965

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kenposikh said:
Hi Terry,

I'm sorry if I've offended you in any way I didn't mean to.

if yo re-read my posts I just wanted to know how these situations are handled in the studios and not the public sport arena. This question was answered.

Amrik
No offense was taken just always looking at other point of views, sport TKD is so much different than a real SD stituation and alot of people ndo not undrstand the concept.
Terry
 

kenposikh

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terryl965 said:
No offense was taken just always looking at other point of views, sport TKD is so much different than a real SD stituation and alot of people ndo not undrstand the concept.
Terry

I understand :)
 
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AceHBK

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Thanks for all the info in here.
We will see how it goes this friday if we spar as planned and see how good she is at foot tag. lol
I am open to learn all that I can from her and I have the get past the metal block of her being 14. Even tho I do TKD I am not a fan of WTF sparring. I feel it takes a dimension away from a fighter especially if you are taking TKD for SD and not for just the sport aspect of it.

I will be honest and admit calling a kid ma'am or sir is kind of hard. It is like going to my job and having a 14 yr old boss and calling them the samething. Naturally you would be like "u gotta b kidding me" Hell I call my boss and my V.P. of engineering of my company by their first name. I guess being by myself for so long in TKD I still have yet to learn the "finer points" of TKD.
I sometimes teach the kids and adult classes and of course I see a 14yr old as a kid. Now I may need to adjust that thinking in MA when it comes to rank but I still see a kid.

I will take what everyone said and will apply it and see how it goes.
I really hope it works out well.

Now will someone just remind me what sparring rules are?
I know we do WTF.

When y Master and I spar, I can kick anywhere and punch anywhere. I have been doing this since I started TKD a year ago. I will say making the adjustment to just feet to the chest will be difficult if that is all that is allowed. I could call and ask him...BUT you all are so great with advice and help why not ask u all??
 

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she should be a junior blackbelt so although she has reached the required technical acumen - she is not seen by the Kukkiwon as mature. I dont agree with some comments people have made that she should be able to take on anyone because she is a 2nd Dan. This is the reason the Kukkiwon system doesnt allow you to hold full Dan status until you are 16 - maybe we shouldnt allow any blackbelts before 16. I've heard of clubs with 3rd Dans at 14 - but believe the individuals were truly talented and commited. We have a couple of 2nd Dan kids (I am 2nd Dan). They are helpful to the lower belts with technical elements even adults in their 30's and 40's but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous.. Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.
 
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kenpojujitsu

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Zepp said:
That shouldn't be an issue anywhere in the U.S., just so long as the child is partcipating with her parents' permission.

Actually, it IS an issue.
Ask your lawyer on this:
Liability waivers do not protect you in the case of negligence.

Putting a black belt on a 14 year old girl and having her spar with an adult is negligent.

In the event of injury, this girl's parents can sue the instructor and the adult that hurt her and they will win.
 

terryl965

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kenpojujitsu said:
Actually, it IS an issue.
Ask your lawyer on this:
Liability waivers do not protect you in the case of negligence.

Putting a black belt on a 14 year old girl and having her spar with an adult is negligent.

In the event of injury, this girl's parents can sue the instructor and the adult that hurt her and they will win.

It has all the time in Sport TKD the US OPen was in town last week and we had 14 years old fighting the 18-32 year old brackets and let see Basketball leagues for the Elites that are 12-15 are going against grown men in these summer leagues and lets not forget about Baseball they use 12 year old if they are good enough and lets not even get into hockey or football.

We send athletes to the Olympics games with childern participating look at the tennis players at wimberdon at the age of 12 going against grown ups..

My God people have everybody been living in the deepest part of the woods for the last thirty year or have we as a society just grown to accept certain things as being alright and other as off limits.

Wait did'nt girl start to compete in football Ou my god what is next, that is right MA it is the football basketball and baseball of yester year get use to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry Lee Stoker

PM my brothe ris a corporate Attorney and the waiver that most school have will save your bUtt if it comes down to it.
 
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AceHBK

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I have to agree with Terry on this issue.
Negligence would mean the school letting her spar without signing a waiver as well as sparring without the proper sparring gear.

Also presedence will have been set if she competes at such events as the US Open and has been in brackets where she faces older people. There is a implied danger than can occur and she knows of this. Just like you can't sue if u get hit by a baseball during a pop fly at a baseball game. By going you understand certain risks are involved.

Again you have to DEFINE negligence and apply it to this case and you se that it cant be applied unless certain precautions didnt take place.
 

Touch Of Death

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AceHBK said:
Ok I need some advice here you guys.
My Master let me know last night that we will have a 14 yr old 2Dan BB coming to join us for awhile and may join if she likes it. She wants more intense training and a good Master to learn from so that is why she is trying us out.

Here is the issue....

Being I am the highest ranked student at Blue Belt I will have to spar against her. I feel weird sparring at 14 yr old then a girl at that. Yes she is a 2nd Dan but damn. She ompeted at the US Open and all here in Texas. My Master said she is really good.

1..Do I call her Master? (Im 28..even though age has nothing to do with it but 14yr old and I call her Master, I wont lie, it will feel very weird)

2. Do you take it easy on her? I mean hell it will be hard to go full out...now maybe if she caught me one good time I may not be able to hold back but you understand.

3. How would you handle the situation?
First of all you are full grown adult male and she is a fourteen year old girl. If you don't think you can hold back then you need to tell your instructor you know you don't have control and that you should not be sparring her or anyone that he hopes to keep as a student. Next, you need some serious lessons in control. Your instructor will appreciate your concern. This is a timing issue and they can literaly beat it out of you. One of two things usualy happen, you'll either stay and become a mature martial artist or you will not stay. This is a crucial time for you. Good luck on your journey.
Sean
 
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AceHBK

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Touch Of Death said:
First of all you are full grown adult male and she is a fourteen year old girl. If you don't think you can hold back then you need to tell your instructor you know you don't have control and that you should not be sparring her or anyone that he hopes to keep as a student. Next, you need some serious lessons in control. Your instructor will appreciate your concern. This is a timing issue and they can literaly beat it out of you. One of two things usualy happen, you'll either stay and become a mature martial artist or you will not stay. This is a crucial time for you. Good luck on your journey.
Sean

I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.
 

terryl965

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AceHBK said:
I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.

At this stage in here life she better or take up underwater basket weaving it is a great sport you know!!!!

Terry
 

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AceHBK said:
I understand what you are saying and can agree.
I wont go and try to hit with full power but at the same time as someone pointed out, if she is a 2nd Dan (and competes at the US Open) then she should know how to protect herself.

regardless of her rank you still must respect that she is a child, i am not sure how the US open works but i dont think mearly competing in an event qualifyers you to be able to hit her full power, after all even the greatest MA's still may miss and take a hit once in awhile
 

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wynnema said:
but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous..

In my opinion, this is no reason not to show respect - in many ways, it is a reason to do so. I call all of my students sir/ma'am - regardless of age, gender, or rank. This has spilled over from my TKD students to the students I teach math to in a middle school - and I firmly believe that the respect I show them is part of why I get respect in return, and have very few discipline problems with my middle school students.

wynnema said:
Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.

This is a different issue entirely. If you don't call your instructor sir, then it would follow that more junior students would also be addressed informally. Respect can be demonstrated in many ways - formality of address is only one way, using a familiar form of address is not disrespectful unless the person addressing someone informally is going against the norms of the situation. Again, however, in my opinion, respect is due for a variety of reasons, and simply because a student is younger than a certain age does not mean that respect should not be shown.
 

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BrandiJo said:
regardless of her rank you still must respect that she is a child, i am not sure how the US open works but i dont think mearly competing in an event qualifyers you to be able to hit her full power, after all even the greatest MA's still may miss and take a hit once in awhile

Since most people I've sparred kinda feel out the power level during the first few exchanges, I'm wondering how good an idea it is to go in with a predetermined level of force without even having met the other party in the sparring session.

Can't remember the last time I sat around thinking "Ok, they're going to have me spar a 5th dan next week. I better go 89% vs my usual 56.8%..."
 

Kacey

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Marginal said:
Since most people I've sparred kinda feel out the power level during the first few exchanges, I'm wondering how good an idea it is to go in with a predetermined level of force without even having met the other party in the sparring session.

Indeed. Assuming things can lead to misconceptions. One of my female students, now a 1st Dan but then a yellow or green belt, was, at 14, 5'11" - making her the second-tallest person in the class (the other being a young man of 16, who was 6' even) and a good 6 inches taller than I am. Now she's almost 20 (gad, I'm old...) and 6'2".
 

cali_tkdbruin

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wynnema said:
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We have a couple of 2nd Dan kids (I am 2nd Dan). They are helpful to the lower belts with technical elements even adults in their 30's and 40's but they are still kids and there is no sir/maam - that would be ridiculous.. Having said that our club is relaxed with things like that, I still call the Chief Instructor by his first name even though he is a 5th Dan.

Sounds like it's kinda casual at your dojang. I'm a grown man, and I train under a Saubumnim who's just a month older than me, but he's been training for in TKD for a lot of years now. He started in Korea when he was 7, and he has a bunch more gold stripes on his BB than I do (he's a 7th dan, I'm just a pissant 2nd). I always refer to him as sir or Sabumnim. I have never addressed him by his first name even though I've been training under him for years now.
 

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Kacey said:
In my opinion, this is no reason not to show respect - in many ways, it is a reason to do so. I call all of my students sir/ma'am - regardless of age, gender, or rank. This has spilled over from my TKD students to the students I teach math to in a middle school - and I firmly believe that the respect I show them is part of why I get respect in return, and have very few discipline problems with my middle school students.

As usual, you are full of wisdom! I couldn't agree with you more. This teaches respect and courtesy by example and is an extremely powerful method of indoctrinating young people in basic manners.
 

hong kong fooey

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I don't think you will have to call her Master.

and just because she's 14 dosen't mean you have to go easy with her but don't go nuts either
 
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