OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
Quote of the day!
So called fancy - If you can, then do...
- Thread starter ATC
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WC_lun
Senior Master
For me its a risk vs reward thing. Sure I can do fancy, but I much prefer to keep to the less risky options. If I gotta fight, I'm not doing it to impress anyone, I'm doing it because I have to. My first priority is getting out safe, not proving that the 360 jumping roundhouse kick can work. Also, after many, many years of training, I know what myself and the mates I train with do to anyone who gets fancy when trading hands with us. I have had it drilled into me over the years that fancy gets me put on the ground. I realize not everyone is experienced enough to take advantage like that, but as I said earlier, I'm not willing to take the risk.
The spinning kick was brilliant. But here we go again with the silly chorus of mistaking a sports application with a street fight. Kong Soo Do articulated the differences in the dynamics -- rules, clothing, being warmed up, etc. -- and made a cogent argument against such foolery. If you disagree, fine, go give it a spin (pun intended) and report back on the results. For me, I have the skill but would never employ it in a real fight 1. If I turn my back (spinning), the opponent may move unpredictably nor 2. will I jump to kick, because landing is fraught with danger. Both are bad ideas and have potentially dire consequences. So spin away in the gym but do not encourage this for self defense. Never treat a sport like fight and fight like a sport.
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
I don't know the numbers but most Martial Artist I know have never even been in a real fight. So many of their principles don't really hold water. I have seen so called masters get schooled by non trained individuals when put to the test. Most just believe that their masters or instructors know what they are talking about. But truth be told most have never been in a real SD situation ever. I see all the gun and knife SD stuff being taught and laugh. I use to live in LA in the 90's and was robbed at gun point 7 times, with a knife once, and can not count the number of times I had to fight off an attack. Most SD situation you don't see coming first of all. So your best friend is reflex and reaction. Most SD only people don't practice reflex and reaction even half as much as do sport competitors. I am not saying that for all SD practitioners but for most. The reflex and reaction time of your sports competitor in any art, is head and shoulders above most SD practitioners by far. That is what they train mostly, so when needed they can use what's best for what they see. Now if they have never reacted with a so called fancy kick then they can't and won't, but if they have trained to react with it then they can and will. Regardless if they can do a fancy kick or not. Just being able to do is not the same as being able to use. That is what is meant by if you can't you won't but if you can you will.
I appreciate your point. I was assaulted when living in Cleveland. I live in DC nowadays and it has all the dangers as does LA. I disagree with your notion about SD training in martial arts schools. The will work but the mental part -- dealing with a surprise or facing down a worsening situation -- can only be simulated to a point. When fear sets in the game changes. That is why simple motions are the best, not complex spinning kicks or that ilk.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
To elite sports practitioners a spinning kick isnt "complex", they do hundreds of them a week, year after year after year, they could probably do it in their sleep. Its all relative.
YEP! It just happens!
OP
OP
ATC
Senior Master
You are 100% correct. But you have to train to make those simple move second nature. Heck anyone can swing their arms at someone. But most will even miss at that when time calls for them to do it. Why because they don't practice in live situations ever. People that train day in and day out in live situations with spin kicks have a better chance to hit what they want than the average Martial Artist that just practices hitting a bag mitts.
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
My respects to everyone in this thread, and to Dr. Rush, I was glad to read that your student was safe.
My opinion is that in a real self defense situation, your initial responses will not consist of you actively choosing to use a specific technique, but more so as a reflex that will come out from your training. Unless in a panic state, your mind will automatically select the technique that it is most confident with to survive. It is with this reasoning that I choose to practice simple and direct techniques that require the least amount of maintenance for me to maintain proficiency with. By all means continue to enjoy the beauty of the art you choose; but for self defense situations, please keep in mind your own personal level of commitment that will be required to maintain your skill level.
My opinion is that in a real self defense situation, your initial responses will not consist of you actively choosing to use a specific technique, but more so as a reflex that will come out from your training. Unless in a panic state, your mind will automatically select the technique that it is most confident with to survive. It is with this reasoning that I choose to practice simple and direct techniques that require the least amount of maintenance for me to maintain proficiency with. By all means continue to enjoy the beauty of the art you choose; but for self defense situations, please keep in mind your own personal level of commitment that will be required to maintain your skill level.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
You really dont need to limit what you practice (Or if you do, it should be because you like the stuff youre narrowing down to, and not because you think itll somehow make you worse at those things if you dont emphasize them above all else) with the intent of self defense. Everything works. Refer back to my second reply, paragraph two, starting with the statement that everything works.
But if you want to keep it really simple, straight punch = jam the arm out, hook punch = swing the arm (for real - not the wide swings people seem to think are common), front kick = swing your leg at theirs. Simplicity complete. Youve now reminded yourself of a small amount of the stuff you knew before you ever learnt anything.
But if you want to keep it really simple, straight punch = jam the arm out, hook punch = swing the arm (for real - not the wide swings people seem to think are common), front kick = swing your leg at theirs. Simplicity complete. Youve now reminded yourself of a small amount of the stuff you knew before you ever learnt anything.
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
But if you want to keep it really simple, straight punch = jam the arm out, hook punch = swing the arm (for real - not the wide swings people seem to think are common), front kick = swing your leg at theirs. Simplicity complete. You've now reminded yourself of a small amount of the stuff you knew before you ever learnt anything.
You've touched on my own personal philosophy of Martial Arts: that an individual should train in a system that uses what feels natural to them - simple, direct, but yet now refined.
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grumpywolfman
Black Belt
There is another reason why I stay away from high flashy kicks besides the maintenance issue. I was hesitant in replying more in depth, and I hope I don't to offend anybody with my opinion.
Maybe I just developed an eye for it at the time, but when I used to spar against guys who favored flashy kicks to the head (I used to refer to them as 'head hunters'), they usually got their supporting leg swept, the kicking leg caught, kicked in the groin, or hit as soon as their leg landed. So, in addition to all the work involved in mastering those kicks, I just didn't see them as worth the risk. But in respect to those who have reached that level of skill, I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "flashy-kick" if it met its target :asian:
Maybe I just developed an eye for it at the time, but when I used to spar against guys who favored flashy kicks to the head (I used to refer to them as 'head hunters'), they usually got their supporting leg swept, the kicking leg caught, kicked in the groin, or hit as soon as their leg landed. So, in addition to all the work involved in mastering those kicks, I just didn't see them as worth the risk. But in respect to those who have reached that level of skill, I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "flashy-kick" if it met its target :asian:
Cyriacus
Senior Master
I can promise you there are people who make headkicking look like a fantastic idea - Ive been kicked in the head by them.
The mistake some people make is liking one thing, then trying to use it all the time. They might like a high back kick, so theyll try and use it every time you come at them hoping it will eventually work. Or theyll just fixate on the head and keep trying to hit it, and nothing else. The smart ones (with upper body strikes, thats fine. its repeatedly trying to head kick that doesnt work so good imo. in this case, im referring to smart headkickers rather than fixating ones) are the ones who go for the head when they see a chance to.
For example, grabbing someones shoulders and outside (inward) axe kicking them in the head from a range no other high kick could even get to anything. But if you try and do that several times, it wont work several times. Get a chance to do it, and once will be fine.
In my case, that chance was me trying to kick from my right leg from way too close, then getting hit in the left side of the head before i could put my foot back down on the ground. I shall also tack on that it didnt really do anything, before anyone visualizes the strike having any effect whatsoever, but it landed and there was really nothing i could have done to stop it, other than not be in that position to begin with. Which i havent been since.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
Building on what ATC said, people who get good at violence are that way because they hide the attack well and finish with the first attack--you've either got reflex or you're done. You won't think, you'll react. If you've trained enough to have a functional reaction that doesn't take conscious thought, you have a chance. You can survive otherwise, but it's more luck than skill.
I get what some are saying--that a head kick may not function in all situations (as I sit in Michigan, winter clothing, heavy boots, and icy ground come to mind). However, I think it's oversimple to think that an athlete who trains regularly is a one-trick pony. To spar beyond the basic level takes a trained response that is ingrained enough that you no longer have to use conscious thought. It has to happen in an instant, the right instant. That's training.
It's a good question to ask of one's own training: What in me is trained so well that I don't even have to think about it to read and respond correctly in the moment?
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
This is a point that is worth repeating IMO.
grumpywolfman
Black Belt
Yep you nailed it, we were all amateurs, and some guys just really wanted to try and kick you in the head - these were the type of fighters I nicknamed "headhunters."
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I used to train with a "head hunter" (I havent seen him in class for a couple of years now). He was this big unathletic looking guy, third dan, and carrying too much weight. He would literally kick you in the head at will. It used to frustrate the hell out of me, I knew what he was going to do, I did my best to not let it happen, and yet he would connect his foot with my head like it was connected by a piece of string. He would do it to everyone. Im having nightmares going back over it in my head.
The vid was off, obviously I found a mirror. Damn, that was terrible, I almost wished I hadn't seen the vid, it was good to read here that the guy was doing ok, after all.
That was a great move, but it still was in a sport setting. Very few people argue against the efficacy of such techniques in a sport setting. If you train to use techniques for when having your life at stake, however, the fighting strategies should be more conservative, in my opinion. Great kick (and scary KO) anyway.
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