Size and Strength

[Bigshadow]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.

Actually, once the brain has committed to the movement, you cannot stop or usurp that movement or change plans until the movement has been completed. Once the brain is committed to the movement (punch, kick, slice, picking up a glass of ice tea or :drinkbeer ) you cannot change that action until it is complete.

I think what you were seeing is the person dropping anchor after the move and requires more effort to change directions or movement.

Next time you commit to :drinkbeer, try changing it.... you can't. If you can change it, you were not truly committed in the first place.

 

[arnisador]

Now we're inventing our own equations?

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.

 

[Elhan]

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.

I think he's trying to illustrate a point though. Even if its not entirely scientific, he is attempting to show its a lot more complex than a matter of size/mass, or even speed, skill etc for that matter. Its an entire bevy of factors. Its a good attempt at that.

Another thing I wanted to ask. Women supposedly have proportionally longer legs, and are at the most 10-15% smaller in the lower body area than a man of the equivalent size. This size difference is far less significant than that of their upper body. They also have better balance and flexibility. As such, wouldn't it be more sensible for a woman to strengthen her legs and do a martial art with a heavy kick component? In my mind, she could use a distractive blow to one of the weaker body parts of her opponent, and then do a roundhouse kick. She could, of course, focus on grapples, throws, nerve strikes, counter attacks etc, yet prefer kicks as opposed to punches. Additionally, would it not be more sensible for her to attempt to grapple with her legs, since these are her stronger body parts? Strength is a factor in fighting, even if not that great, yet if a woman can use her strength to her advantage I would think she would go for the leg region.

Another question. How did Bruce Lee, at a mere 120 lbs, manage to overpower opponents far larger and sometimes equally skilled to himself? Was it mere adrenaline rushes or what? I have seen documentaries on the man, and they say he was a fighting monster. Apparently he wore himself out eventually as he had too little fat stored in his body, so he was much like a cat...had powerful, short bursts of energy, then needed a rest.

 

[Rich Parsons]

More like making models than inventing equations, I'd say.

I created nothing, - Just ask an professor in Math or Physics.

I tried to use my knowledge and experience in Martial Art, Engineering, and Computer Science to model, or explain a system.


And yes it is complex.

 

[Adept]

Another question. How did Bruce Lee, at a mere 120 lbs, manage to overpower opponents far larger and sometimes equally skilled to himself?

Emphasis mine.

Thats the kicker, isn't it? We can't measure skill in an objective way. I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

Assuming he didn't change to match them

 

[Elhan]

Emphasis mine.

Thats the kicker, isn't it? We can't measure skill in an objective way. I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

Well some of them were allegedly far better versed in the martial arts than he was, although I do agree that in today's world he may have a harder time since things have changed so much. He'd have to adapt if he lived now to new techniques.

 

[Elhan]

I don't think Bruce would fare as well today in events like Pride and the UFC as he did back then, because training methods have changed so much.

Assuming he didn't change to match them

Exactly.

 

[FearlessFreep]

A few weeks back in the MMA forum, wasn't there discussion about how Roce Gracie beat up guys much bigger than him before there were weight classes in UFC?

 

[Marginal]

A few weeks back in the MMA forum, wasn't there discussion about how Roce Gracie beat up guys much bigger than him before there were weight classes in UFC?

Well, Royce isn't exactly tiny. He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

Stuff like Hackney vs Yarbrogh doesn't really demonstrate much along those lines either. Hackney had some ability, Yarbrogh's chief talent was bodyweight. (Vicious Judu and Sumu practitioner as the announcers proclaimed not withstanding) He mainly lost because he was too heavy to stand back up once he fell down.

 

[FearlessFreep]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

 

[Rich Parsons]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

In the 60's it was Judo and Ju-Jitsu.
In the 70's it moved to Karate and TKD and Full Contact Sparring some point sparring as well.
In the 80's it was the area of Ninja and other specialty arts including a rise of FMA's and blade work.
In the 90's it was MMA on the rise. Which took it back to the ground.

I have a friend who smiles about his training in the 60's through today and how things go in cycles.

 

[Elhan]

He also had a skillset that nobody really knew how to counter at the time.

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

Which is why one should mix 2 or more martial arts and vary their techniques as much as possible. The more techniques you possess, the more difficult an opponent you will make. I think this is what makes a good martial artist; one who knows how to surprise his/her opponents. If you counter with an Aikido move, and then suddenly use a throw from a completely different style, you will leave your opponent baffled. Also, martial arts with huge move sets also have that advantage to them; namely, that it makes you all the more unpredictable. That said, some techniques are extremely difficult to counter no matter how common they are, and if you get distracted and put off guard by a rather unusual move, you might get completely flattened by a common set of moves.

 

[jdinca]

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

It's not strength that makes the difference here, it's the mass of the two objects involved. The same goes for your boxing analogy, the bigger boxers hit harder because there is more mass driving the fist forward. Just think how devastating their punches would be if they were as fast as the bantam weights?

 

[SAVAGE]

Speed is not acceleration, nor is mass a clearly defined concept here when it comes to a strike or ma action.

Acceleration is a key to the presentation of significant force, while speed is merely a 'measurement' of the rate of motion. I.e., it's not how many feet per second, but how many feet per second per second... which is quite a different animal altogether and which is crucial to understanding such difference if you wish to be truly skilled in applying techniques associated 'beyond' merely hitting someone.

Here's where some heavy learning comes into play, so bear with me:

If you use momentum (a set high rate of speed) to when you try to manuever or strike someone, you have 'committed' and are thus vulnerable. The higher the momentum, the greater the window of vulnerability, and thus the greater the window of opportunity for your adversary. Unfortunately, this is the definition of speed, and it is what so many people end up fixating on.

Then there is the one that tries to muscle their way through actions. This also creates a degree of commitment, but moreso it presents 'tenseness' in your actions that can be exploited by 'change' in your adversary's resistance. In judo, a training concept to resist such habits is referred to as push/pull, in which the two perform pulls and pushes in an attempt to catch their opponent overcommiting through force or 'momentum.'

As to the issue of mass, that's a real tricky one. It's tricky because someone who is strong, or heavy, or big, or tall... can present more mass in their actions. But, the catch word here is, "can." As in the example presented above, strength alone is insufficient to be effective, and presents its own inherent problems. So too does being heavy, big, or tall. It is not as much what someone's 'potential' for presentation of mass, but whether they have sufficient 'skill' to be able to 'utilize' their mass whilst maintaining balance.

What determines whether 'potential' mass can be applied effectively is skill in technique. By applying techniques cleanly, more mass can be applied to your actions without presenting opportunities that your opposition can exploit.

And now, we talk about acceleration. Acceleration, in my opinion, is the lost aspect of many practitioners today. Acceleration is what is the concept to 'generating' an increasing degree of motion, thereby ensuring that the adversary remains incapable of action, timed or reactive. I.e., by accelerating with your strikes, rather than merely reaching a speed and striking the adversary, you prevent the adversary from effectively countering. by accelerating through a throw or takedown, you incrementally increase the rate of speed your opponent is being thrown with, and thus exponentially increasing not merely the effectiveness of the techniques, but the power generated and the damage capable. I.e., instead of reaching a certain speed and maintaining that speed during a technique, you present the same force throughout, which causes an exponential increase in the rate of speed.

White Warlock

 

[Elhan]

)snip*

Hey that was quite an interesting post. Not sure if its all correct, but it seems to be. Quite illuminating.

 

[Marginal]

That's very true. I week or so back, some on TheDojang was commenting that you see more and more UFC fights staying up because the fighters have gotten better at training takedown defense. I think certain techniques were so dominate at a point because know one knew how to counter them; now people know as the tides shift again

This is getting off topic, but there's also the element of the crowd. People still have an easier time understanding striking, and thusly consider it more exciting. That influences how the fights develop/what skills are valued too.

 

[SAVAGE]

Hey that was quite an interesting post. Not sure if its all correct, but it seems to be. Quite illuminating.

I would love to take the credit..but I am not so eloquent (English is not my first language)...it was written by a co member on another forum!

The infamous White Warlock...he is just a fountain of knowledge!

 

[Elhan]

I would love to take the credit..but I am not so eloquent (English is not my first language)...it was written by a co member on another forum!

The infamous White Warlock...he is just a fountain of knowledge!

Oh, well thanks for putting the post up anyway

 

[SAVAGE]

No problem...glad you enjoyed it!