Size and Strength

[MJS]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would like to hear other opinions first.

Mike

 

[Henderson]

Size and strength do not matter.

I give the following as an example...My physical stature is 5'10" and 215 lbs. One of my training partners is also 5'10", however he is approx 140 lbs. Despite my 75 lb weight advantage, if my form and technique (Judo) are not correct, I have difficulty throwing Eric because his experience is greater than mine. Conversely, despite my weight advantage, I cannot "muscle" my way out of a throw if Eric's technique is good.

Skill and knowledge are more important, IMHO.

Respects,
Frank

 

[jdinca]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?

I have my own thoughts on this, but would like to hear other opinions first.

Mike

I think that's one of the beauties of martial arts. Power is generated from speed, timing, and technique, not size and strength. As a result, smaller, weaker people can learn how to effectively defend themselves against a larger, stronger attacker. Not to mention that training involves learning how to take advantage of vulnerable spots that size and strenght can't really protect, i.e., the throat. Be you 100lbs, or 250lbs, a shot to the throat is going to make you stop what you're doing and focus on breathing.

I've had a 5' 4", 115lb 5th degree woman BB hit me much harder than younger, bigger, stronger, less experienced men.

 

[Grenadier]

When it comes down to it, skill in the martial arts can be thought of as more of an equalizing agent that can go a certain distance. For example, a 120 lb yudansha, versus a 180 lb untrained person, stands a decent chance of doing quite well. However, if you switch that 180 lb person with a 250 lb person who's almost all lean muscle mass, then that could present a problem.

Now, if we look at two people in an even closer ballpark, say a 180 lb well-trained fighter versus a 200 lb average untrained fighter, then I would have to give the nod to the trained fellow, since there's not enough sheer power to overcome the former's skills.

Granted, a 120 lb fighter isn't going to produce as much sheer power as a similarly skilled 180 pounder. However, eventually, you're going to get to a point where you have "enough" power to do the job. Where is that weight level? I really can't answer, since we're all of different shapes and sizes, etc. After all, you could be an amazing specimen like Bruce Lee, and be just about 120 lbs, and still generate obscene amounts of power, or you could be a poorly shaped 200 lb person who doesn't know how to use his body correctly.

I do know, that at my height / weight (around 170 lbs), I have "enough" power to do the job against most folks, and if the strength differential is too much to overcome, then I would have resorted to other tactics.

 

[splazzatch]

I am 6'5" and 250 pounds...I would say that size and strength are nothing except a use of intimidation....if you are 5'5" 120 pounds and you are intimidated by the size you will loose regardless of your training...but if you are not scared of your attacker you have a much better chance of surviving and winning.


In my training I hate going against people smaller than me because they are usually quicker and usually feel that they need to work harder to beat me as a result they use more power and it hurts :waah:

When I train against people my size (which is not often) I find it to be more of a challenging fight because we have to both think about it and there is less force but still power and control.

I have found that bigger guys have more control because they are used to fighting smaller people that they could hurt.

In the real world against an untrained fighter everyone just needs to incapacitate as quickly as possible and go from there...

 

[Andrew Green]

Size + Strength + Skill + Guts = Your chances of winning when compared to the other guys.

All play a part, and all are important. A smaller, weaker person can overcome those disadvantages with a higher level of skill.

This: "Size and strength do not matter."

Is simply not true. Someone 50lbs lighter then me is going to require a very high skill level over me in order to beat me. Someone 50lbs heavier (of muscle...) is going to give me a hard time even when I have the skill advantage.

 

[Cirdan]

Well for one thing training MA will increase strenght, stamina, agility etc over time if done correctly.

Size matters, but being big is not always a plus. Strenght definately matters, but with skill the opponent will be put in positions where he is weak and you are strong.

Also, there is not neccecary a need to "defeat" an opponent in order to win. :boxing:

 

[Marginal]

Looking at another thread in this section, the topics of men and women, as well as size and strength differences came up.

While I do realize that size and strength do play their roles, as well as having good technique, it made me think: if all it takes is size and strength, what purpose is a smaller persons training going to benefit? Is a 5'8 person, regardless of male of female, always going to be defeated if that person is taller, heavier, etc.?

Thing is, small vs big is always, always, always presented with the filter that the smaller guy possess vastly superior skill. Which really makes as much sense as assuming the big guy's always going to be in a wheelchair.

 

[MJS]

Great replies! Thanks to all that posted!

Size and strength certainly play a role, but IMO, I feel that they are often over rated and looked at as the deciding factor. There were a few things in some of the posts here that caught my eye.

Size and strength do not matter.

I give the following as an example...My physical stature is 5'10" and 215 lbs. One of my training partners is also 5'10", however he is approx 140 lbs. Despite my 75 lb weight advantage, if my form and technique (Judo) are not correct, I have difficulty throwing Eric because his experience is greater than mine. Conversely, despite my weight advantage, I cannot "muscle" my way out of a throw if Eric's technique is good.

Skill and knowledge are more important, IMHO.

Respects,
Frank

I agree with this. Having better technique will IMO make a difference. I out weigh by grappling instructor, but his technique makes up the difference.

Be you 100lbs, or 250lbs, a shot to the throat is going to make you stop what you're doing and focus on breathing.

Agreed! I'm certainly not going to attempt to out power someone who is visibly bigger, stronger, etc., but thats all the more reason to take advantage of those targets that can't be conditioned. Some people may think that an eye shot, throat shot or groin shot are over rated, but those are 3 targets that I wouldn't think twice about going for. Fight stoppers? Maybe, maybe not, but if it buys me some time to a) do a follow up move, or b) get out of the area, I'm certainly not going to pass them up.

I've had a 5' 4", 115lb 5th degree woman BB hit me much harder than younger, bigger, stronger, less experienced men.

Yes, I've seen some women whom, if it was a choice between them or someone else watching my back, I'd rather take them.

 

[SAVAGE]

I am 6'5" and 250 pounds...I would say that size and strength are nothing except a use of intimidation....if you are 5'5" 120 pounds and you are intimidated by the size you will loose regardless of your training...but if you are not scared of your attacker you have a much better chance of surviving and winning.


In my training I hate going against people smaller than me because they are usually quicker and usually feel that they need to work harder to beat me as a result they use more power and it hurts :waah:

When I train against people my size (which is not often) I find it to be more of a challenging fight because we have to both think about it and there is less force but still power and control.

I have found that bigger guys have more control because they are used to fighting smaller people that they could hurt.

In the real world against an untrained fighter everyone just needs to incapacitate as quickly as possible and go from there...

Yeah...the world hasnt been the same for us big guys...since the david and goliath fiasco! Small guys are always trying to bash me in the dojo...its liek a trophy to them!

strength is nice and it plays a big role...listen you can hit a 300 pound gorilla a few times and he may not be phased.....but he needs to hit you once and whoa boy! Now having siad that...strength is nice ...BUT IT IS NOT THE EQUILISER!

Technique, speed and timing is what counts...if that three hundred pound gorrila threw a punch incorrectly....it wouldnt have as much poundage as a punch thrown from a 200 pound practitioner who threw it correctly! And another thing..as we age that strength of youth is gone...how do you explain 80 year old masters..wiping the dojo floor with there much younger opponents!

Strenghth is nice...but technique is more important!

 

[terryl965]

Well over the year I have given guys with a bigger statue more than enough trouble and vise versus of course. I believe technique if done right it will over come size.
Terry

 

[Sarah]

Its interesting what the human body is capable of when needed....I have heard of a woman single handedly lifting a car to save her child!

I wouldn’t underestimate anyone when it comes to survival/the survival of loved one! Size/Strength of a person can be very deceiving.

 

[Bigshadow]

I like to think that size and strength are bonuses if you have them and are doing proper movement and structural alignment. But like a bonus.... Don't count/depend on it!

Proper movement and structural alignment are MOST important.

 

[Sin]

Size is bad...Strength comes with doing the technique over and over again.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Attitude is Key.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

In a fight between a good big guy and a good little guy, I'll bet on the good big guy.

Lamont

 

[SAVAGE]

In a fight between a good big guy and a good little guy, I'll bet on the good big guy.

Lamont

I think that you dont account for speed...as a general rule the smaller guy is faster...and not to mention another variable we dont think of...Luck!

If two good fighters were fighting, I would just be thankfull they are fighting each other and not me!

 

[Adept]

There should be no reason why the little guy is faster. Muscles generate speed, after all, and so long as one does the correct training, you can still be fast even if you are a 250 pound meat head.

I believe size (as in, good size. Lean muscle, not just a fat couch potato) is a large advantage. Of course, that advantage can be neutralised by skill, but that presumes the bigger guy is less skilled. There is no reason to assume that.

If one guy is bigger, and the other smaller, we should assume that their skill and experience is similar. It's only fair. And in those situations, the big guy has more power and speed at his disposal, more natural armour, a height and reach advantage, as well as a weight advantage. They're not things you can dismiss out of hand with a 'Well, skill is better' because it just doesn't address the issue.

 

[Cujo]

Skill level is IMHO, the most important factor. However, if two people of equal skill meet but one is much stronger than the other, that may be a problem. I've got 60 pounds on my JJJ instructor, but he will tie me up in a heart beat! I look forward to the day when I can turn the tables on him.
Pax
Cujo

 

[Elhan]

Yet Kung Fu Masters do say at higher levels Chi (ie Focus) entirely replaces strength as a factor for power. Thus wouldn't focus go alongside skill, agility, balance, flexibility, speed, strength, luck etc? I do not believe strength is enough. Someone mentioned people doing amazing things, such as a woman lifting a car, or martial artists to break bricks with their bare hands. This could well be due to an adrenaline rush, or extreme focus. If the notion of Ki/Chi allow a person to unleash such power, why would strength even matter? If you hit hard enough to wound your opponent and weave enough to dodge their blows, why assume that greater strength is still an advantage? Furthermore, if the human body possesses certain in-built weak spots, such as the throat, eyes, nerves etc., and striking them requires extreme skill as opposed to strength, often yielding impressive results, again why would it matter? Nerve strikes used by experienced practitioners have been known to kill in a single shot.

Some martial arts, such as Aikido, completely remove strength as a basis altogether, since they redirect the attack ab initio, and are difficult to reverse. Ones such as the Krav Maga state that it hardly matters at all how big or strong you are, because its techniques are so brutal that your opponent won't even be able to breathe once you're down with them. I am not sure about Aikido, but the Krav Maga is praised for its efficiency.

Confidence is something people often forget. If you lack confidence, you may consequently lack the focus to use your techniques. If a person is intimidated by another's size, and loses their confidence, then yes, they will lose. This is something that must be emphasized during martial arts training. Extreme confidence in oneself and nearly automatic application of techniques, to the point of intuition.

Most women (although they do have a balance/agility/endurance advantage) and a lot of men are naturally less able of building high strength, yet many are able of achieving high focus and technical expertise. As such, it would be odd, and even an insult to our mental power, that by now a powerful non-strength based martial art has not developed.