Should lower belts correct the attitude of balck belts?

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I was looking to join a new TKD club, and checked out a few clubs a few times. On the third time of me watching at one club, the young Master invited me to try a class.

We started the warmup with 10 laps, then the Master left for his office to talk with 2 new students. Most of the students counted laps in Korean, but one black belt, maybe 16 was counting in Japanese. I am a red belt, although at that session I was in gym shorts and t-shirt, with no belt.

Later, the same black belt wasn't really listening, and the Master gave him 10 pushups. The student just sort of looked at the Master like "ah, I don't really want to do pushups". The Master said something like, "come on, 10 pushups for not paying attention", at which point the student did his pushups.

Now the questions. In TKD the black belt is senior to me. In age, I am senior to him by about 25 years. If these types of things happen again:
- If the Master is not there, and it is all kids / teenagers, is it correct for me to pull the kid aside and ask him to train more seriously, to set a better example for the lower belts?
- If the Master is there, is it ok to tell other students to give the Master proper respect, and do pushups when he asks?

I'll probably talk to the Master about this before joining, because I don't want to be at a club without due respect to the Masters, the art, and the other students. However, I thought you guys might have input!

 

[jezr74]

I don't think this would be restricted to any particular club, but you need to earn respect before you can demand it. IMO.

I'd wait until you are more part of the club personally, and know the clubs culture.

via Nexus 7 w/Tapatalk - please ignore predictive text spelling errors

 

[Manny]

I was looking to join a new TKD club, and checked out a few clubs a few times. On the third time of me watching at one club, the young Master invited me to try a class.

We started the warmup with 10 laps, then the Master left for his office to talk with 2 new students. Most of the students counted laps in Korean, but one black belt, maybe 16 was counting in Japanese. I am a red belt, although at that session I was in gym shorts and t-shirt, with no belt.

Later, the same black belt wasn't really listening, and the Master gave him 10 pushups. The student just sort of looked at the Master like "ah, I don't really want to do pushups". The Master said something like, "come on, 10 pushups for not paying attention", at which point the student did his pushups.

Now the questions. In TKD the black belt is senior to me. In age, I am senior to him by about 25 years. If these types of things happen again:
- If the Master is not there, and it is all kids / teenagers, is it correct for me to pull the kid aside and ask him to train more seriously, to set a better example for the lower belts?
- If the Master is there, is it ok to tell other students to give the Master proper respect, and do pushups when he asks?

I'll probably talk to the Master about this before joining, because I don't want to be at a club without due respect to the Masters, the art, and the other students. However, I thought you guys might have input!

Openly.... NO.

In private...... perhaps but with a tint of touch.

My students know if they want to complain about something they must aproach me in short or privately, I will listen to them and then think about the thing she/he wants to make statement.

Just recently I had a post class chat with my students and asked them what about tha way I give TKD class, all replied they liked my class (clasic TKD) however they wanted me not to see so many techs in one class, they would rather pracice two or three and do repeticions. I understand them because maybe I thought thay can digere all the things like me but I realiced they are kup level and need more practice and repetitions to do more muscle memory before go to the next level.

I recently (it's document it in this forum) had a bad time with a blue belt because he denied to do sits ups like a punichment for his bad behavoir.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

I feel the need to comment that getting someone to do pushups is more 'Hey! Look at me! Im in charge, and YOURE my subordinate! Now show everyone how in charge i am and do as i say!'.

Thats it from me, really. Because i wouldnt have done the pushups (To be fair though, i would have been listening). 'His' master got him to decide to toe the line, thats his call. But thats not your job. Hes not your kid.

 

[aaradia]

Nope, it isn't your place in this situation to call out a senior ranking student. Your being older does not give you seniority or cirumvent the seniority of a system.
The only exception is if some sort of dangerous situation is happening. Then you have to speak up right away. But then you should still let the instructor know what you did as soon as possible.

You should let your Sifu/ Sensei/ instructor know and let them know your concerns about a class where things like this happen and let him deal with it. He should know that behavior like this could actually cost him potential students like yourself. Sounds like he handles it while he is there. He should know what is happening when he is not there.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Nope, it isn't your place in this situation to call out a senior ranking student. Your being older does not give you seniority or cirumvent the seniority of a system.
The only exception is if some sort of dangerous situation is happening. Then you have to speak up right away. But then you should still let the instructor know what you did as soon as possible.

I agree with most of the posts including the above. Being a no belt, I said nothing, but was going to talk to the instructor about the type of school I am looking for. However, the comment about being older does not give seniority - in Korean culture, is seniority very straightforward (e.g., master / student), or are there nuances, such as age or black belts in other arts?

 

[rlobrecht]

In your example, I'd say no, you shouldn't say anything.

With your two specific examples, I also wouldn't have said anything. Directly saying something when the teen black belt had the attention of the instructor would just further undermine the instructors authority.

But there were situations when I was a high color belt (parent age, having studied at the school for a few years) and I would correct the behavior of a child or teen black belt.

 

[oftheherd1]

Short answer, NO.

I'm inclined to say no to all your questions, because as you describe the school, I don't think you should train there. But it might be worthwhile to talk to the instructor first. There may be a reason he did what he did, such as a mildly autistic BB kid. Even so I would doubt it would be a good school for you. Just my two cents.

 

[aaradia]

I agree with most of the posts including the above. Being a no belt, I said nothing, but was going to talk to the instructor about the type of school I am looking for. However, the comment about being older does not give seniority - in Korean culture, is seniority very straightforward (e.g., master / student), or are there nuances, such as age or black belts in other arts?

Hmmm, I am speaking from my Chinese Martial Arts experience. In our school, people' rank goes by belt, not age.

We line up in rank order for our group classes. Most of the classes are separated by kid's, Teen's, and adult. But occassionaly they aren't. We once had an adult who was lower ranking who thought he should get to line up higher than the higher ranking kids. That isn't how things work for us. You earn your seniority, you aren't born into it by being older. I say this as an older student myself.


But someone else who studies a Korean MA would have to address this I guess.

 

[WaterGal]

If you're not part of the school and you don't know these people, you're really not in a position to correct him. Even if you were, you still shouldn't criticize him in class, though a private chat might be a good idea.

But really, it's the master that should be laying down the law here. It sounds like he has a hard time being strict and enforcing discipline, and probably has been letting that kid get away with that behavior for years.

 

[DennisBreene]

I agree. You really have no standing in that class at this time. Speaking privately with the master is appropriate. I believe that disciplining students should always flow from significantly senior belts and usually in private. Particularly a juvenile black belt. Seriously consider whether this school is a good fit.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I agree. You really have no standing in that class at this time. Speaking privately with the master is appropriate. I believe that disciplining students should always flow from significantly senior belts and usually in private. Particularly a juvenile black belt. Seriously consider whether this school is a good fit.

Yup, when I am not sure, I say nothing. They have a 1 month trial, so I may try it, get to know the students and master better, and talk with the master about how he feels about the class.

At my old school where I trained for a couple years, I talked maybe twice with young black belts about leading by example. In the first case, the boy was maybe 10 and was giving 25% effort at best; my message was to try his best, because when I don't know what to do, I look to the black belts for an example. The second time, a 15 year old black belt was doing his own stretching at the back of the class during the warm up period, and was chatting incessantly while the instructor was leading the stretching. I had a good relationship with the young man, so again in brief I asked him in a positive way to lead by example; given our relationship, he took the feedback in an appreciative way.

In opening this thread, I was just curious how other schools felt about lower belts trying to give feedback on attitude type items.

 

[Drose427]

In my opinon, no, theyre a higher rank. Regardless of age, were it me, I would just keep my mouth shut. Eventually things like that will catch up to them. With you not quite being apart of the class, I'd stress to just sit back and be quiet about it. Maybe once you build relationships with your classmates, you could bring it up in confidence. But the way I look at it, is that person is still higher rank, I'd see it as disrespectful to for a lower rank to criticize anything a black belt does. It's a respect thing, you're not respecting the person, you're respecting the belt.

 

[Gorilla]

Not a good statement about the 16 year old BB...:mst:

 

[nocturnal_]

At my old school where I trained for a couple years, I talked maybe twice with young black belts about leading by example. In the first case, the boy was maybe 10 and was giving 25% effort at best; my message was to try his best, because when I don't know what to do, I look to the black belts for an example. The second time, a 15 year old black belt was doing his own stretching at the back of the class during the warm up period, and was chatting incessantly while the instructor was leading the stretching. I had a good relationship with the young man, so again in brief I asked him in a positive way to lead by example; given our relationship, he took the feedback in an appreciative way.

In your current school there's a 16 year old black-belt and in your previous school there were 10 and 15 year old black belts. And from the your description, those teenage black belts have some attitude issue. Maybe you should check another school that reward black belts to people who really earn it.

In opening this thread, I was just curious how other schools felt about lower belts trying to give feedback on attitude type items.

If you're not an instructor or assistant instructor at the school, it's probably best to let the instructors do their job.

 

[granfire]

I think before this goes of on the 6 y/o BB tangent again....


In a new environment, no, you don't tell other people's kids what to do, same as you would not tell a stranger's brat in Walmart to shut it. Although I have to add, I have given a few youngsters the eye...

As in other parts of life, once you get to know the usual suspects, sometimes it is appropriate to touch on particular behavior in a delicate manner, letting the young people benefit from your life's experience. Chances are, they will take it from a stranger much more readily than from their parents.

however, in the above scenario, nope. Shush, be still my heart.

I don't think it is a grave misdeed to count in a different language, I do it all the time. I usually count in German, but have counted my TKD exercises in Japanese - quietly - as I was trying to learn the language...but I only got to 10 in the heat of the moment...off to German again.

But I do wonder how a not paying attention only nets you 10 pushups....then again, at 16 he would have been in the adult class....and that would not have been done there. (but then, our teen BBs were a bit more mature when in uniform, now in street clothes, in the lobby? Different matter!)

 

[Earl Weiss]

Your "correction" of a Senior would be by way of setting a better example. That would provide an opportunity for the instructor to "Motivate" the Senior by commenting on your good example as opposed to the Senior's poor example or even noting the poor example of the Senior compared to the Junior.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Later, the same black belt wasn't really listening, and the Master gave him 10 pushups. The student just sort of looked at the Master like "ah, I don't really want to do pushups". The Master said something like, "come on, 10 pushups for not paying attention", at which point the student did his pushups.

If I was that black belt's instructor I would expect better from someone who is supposed to be setting an example for the other students. If he had said what he said to me I would have just explained to him, in private or non-specifically to the whole class, that everything anyone does in my class is voluntary. If someone does not want follow my instructions then they do not have to. Conversely if I do not want to teach the class then I do not have to, I could be at home watching TV but I am there because I want to teach and if any student does not want learn then I do not want to teach them. If any student, especially a black belt, does not want to follow instructions then the door is easy to find and they are free to go through it at any time. I would also explain to anyone that pushups are not a punishment but to help the student to focus better. The immediate action to his refusal to do pushups would be to either increase the required number of pushups or tell him to sit down until he is ready to follow instructions and possibly to take a break from training if the behavior continues. As for whether you should have said something to him - as you are new to the class it would suggest that it is not really be your place to say anything, he may think 'who does he think he is telling me anything' it would be better to just let "the Master" deal with it and if he does not then you should ask yourself if that is the kind of class you want to be in.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I was looking to join a new TKD club, and checked out a few clubs a few times. On the third time of me watching at one club, the young Master invited me to try a class.

We started the warmup with 10 laps, then the Master left for his office to talk with 2 new students. Most of the students counted laps in Korean, but one black belt, maybe 16 was counting in Japanese. I am a red belt, although at that session I was in gym shorts and t-shirt, with no belt.

Later, the same black belt wasn't really listening, and the Master gave him 10 pushups. The student just sort of looked at the Master like "ah, I don't really want to do pushups". The Master said something like, "come on, 10 pushups for not paying attention", at which point the student did his pushups.

Now the questions. In TKD the black belt is senior to me. In age, I am senior to him by about 25 years. If these types of things happen again:
- If the Master is not there, and it is all kids / teenagers, is it correct for me to pull the kid aside and ask him to train more seriously, to set a better example for the lower belts?
- If the Master is there, is it ok to tell other students to give the Master proper respect, and do pushups when he asks?

I'll probably talk to the Master about this before joining, because I don't want to be at a club without due respect to the Masters, the art, and the other students. However, I thought you guys might have input!

With all due respect, doing what you're talking about would greatly irritate me in the context you describe.

If you had been a red belt under me, which would have meant you'd been around for a while, it would maybe be different, but it would really bother me personally from both the perspective of the teacher and of the corrected student.

In a taekwondo situation the 16 year old outranks you, period. He has the time in at his club and he has earned his rank.

 

[Carol]

Talk to the instructor and let them know your concerns. If I were a teaching a class, I'd certainly want to know what reservations a potential student would have for joining.

Don't be too quick to judge the teen. Certainly let the instructor know, but keep in mind that many MA teachers open up their schools to students with a variety of unique needs. I've shared the mat with some black belt teens that left me very uncomfortable -- including one teenage BB who never said hi to me and would often do her techniques in the air instead of hitting the pad I was holding.

I later found out she was had autism and was nonverbal. Despite the fact that she had motor control issues of her own (hence doing techniques in the air), she was remarkably sensitive to my movements, and could often detect when I was starting to break form due to fatigue before I could. I went from being uncomfortable working with her to treasuring it, and she's someone I miss training with, even to this day.